Connection to GEC

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st1976

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Hello,

I know there must be a thread on this somewhere but I can't find one. If someone can point me in the right direction I would appreciate it.

Residential 200A 1 Phase service
1 panel
#4 GEC from panel to well casing
Copper water pipes need to be bonded (not used as GEC)
250.104 says I can "bond to the GEC where of sufficent size"

I forgot to hit the copper water pipes on my way by with the GEC. Can I run #4 from the cold water pipe to the GEC or do I have to go all the way back to the panel?

Thanks,
Andy
 
Surprised nobody has answered this after 2 days. You can simply tap off the existing GEC as per 250.64(C)(1) with either cadweld or irreversible crimp. Thats assuming your #4 GEC is correct size, you didnt give enough info for that......
 
st1976 said:
Hello,

I know there must be a thread on this somewhere but I can't find one. If someone can point me in the right direction I would appreciate it.

Residential 200A 1 Phase service
1 panel
#4 GEC from panel to well casing
Copper water pipes need to be bonded (not used as GEC)
250.104 says I can "bond to the GEC where of sufficent size"

I forgot to hit the copper water pipes on my way by with the GEC. Can I run #4 from the cold water pipe to the GEC or do I have to go all the way back to the panel?

Thanks,
Andy
Click to expand...

ZZDoug said:
Surprised nobody has answered this after 2 days. You can simply tap off the existing GEC as per 250.64(C)(1) with either cadweld or irreversible crimp. Thats assuming your #4 GEC is correct size, you didnt give enough info for that......
Click to expand...

Why did he not give enough info? 200amp service. By 250.66 A it could have been #6cu or #4al
 
ZZDoug said:
Surprised nobody has answered this after 2 days. You can simply tap off the existing GEC as per 250.64(C)(1) with either cadweld or irreversible crimp. Thats assuming your #4 GEC is correct size, you didnt give enough info for that......
Click to expand...
There is no rule that would require the use of an irreversible crimp or a cadweld to make this tap connection to the GEC.
 
st1976 said:
Hello,

I know there must be a thread on this somewhere but I can't find one. If someone can point me in the right direction I would appreciate it.

Residential 200A 1 Phase service
1 panel
#4 GEC from panel to well casing


I forgot to hit the copper water pipes on my way by with the GEC. Can I run #4 from the cold water pipe to the GEC ?

Thanks,
Andy
Click to expand...

Yes. [250.70] bond is permitted.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
There is no rule that would require the use of an irreversible crimp or a cadweld to make this tap connection to the GEC.
Click to expand...
Don, there is a graphic similar to this that I always wondered about. where the GEC to the water pipe is tapped to 2 panels. I always thought these had to have irreversible crimps. Am I correct? I will post the graphic.

ry%3D480
 
Dennis,
In the question in this thread, the conductor is not a GEC, but a bonding conductor to the interior metal water piping system as required by 250.104.

As to your question, 250.64(D)(1) clearly permits the use of other than an irreversible connection for a grounding electrode conductor tap.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
There is no rule that would require the use of an irreversible crimp or a cadweld to make this tap connection to the GEC.
Click to expand...

don_resqcapt19 said:
Dennis,
In the question in this thread, the conductor is not a GEC, but a bonding conductor to the interior metal water piping system as required by 250.104.

As to your question, 250.64(D)(1) clearly permits the use of other than an irreversible connection for a grounding electrode conductor tap.
Click to expand...

Don is there a specific code section that permits this tap from the GEC to bond the water pipe? 250.64(D)(1) only covers services and I agree that a split bolt would also be permitted for those taps.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
As to your question, 250.64(D)(1) clearly permits the use of other than an irreversible connection for a grounding electrode conductor tap.
Click to expand...

Don I don't see that section specifically allowing a tap to be splice. If the GEC is continuous into one panel then I can see a split bolt to the first panel.
 
infinity said:
Don is there a specific code section that permits this tap from the GEC to bond the water pipe? 250.64(D)(1) only covers services and I agree that a split bolt would also be permitted for those taps.
Click to expand...
Not Don, but yes...
250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Steel.
(A) Metal Water Piping. The metal water piping system shall be bonded as required in (A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3) of this section. The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E). The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.
(1) General. Metal water piping system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.66 except as permitted in 250.104(A)(2) and (A)(3).


[2 & 3 omitted for brevity; covers multiple occupancies and buildings]
Click to expand...
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Don I don't see that section specifically allowing a tap to be splice. If the GEC is continuous into one panel then I can see a split bolt to the first panel.
Click to expand...

If you're referring to your graphic the GEC ends and the two taps are bonding jumpers. Therefore the GEC is not spliced at all. If the first switch had the same size tap conductor (as the GEC) then I would call that a splice.
 
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Smart $ said:
Not Don, but yes...
Click to expand...

250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Steel.
(A) Metal Water Piping. The metal water piping system shall be bonded as required in (A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3) of this section. The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E). The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.
(1) General. Metal water piping system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.66 except as permitted in 250.104(A)(2) and (A)(3).


[2 & 3 omitted for brevity; covers multiple occupancies and buildings]
Click to expand...
Does it have to be irreversible or compression type?
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Don I don't see that section specifically allowing a tap to be splice. If the GEC is continuous into one panel then I can see a split bolt to the first panel.
Click to expand...
I don't know why you would need to make a splice to connect a tap conductor. I never said you could make a splice without using some type of irreversible connection, I only said you can tap to the GEC without using an irreversible connection.
 
infinity said:
Does it have to be irreversible or compression type?
Click to expand...
No. See 250.8 for types of connection permitted for a bonding conductor.

don_resqcapt19 said:
Why would it have to be irreversible? The only rule that requires that type of connection is the one for the GEC. The conductor to the interior water pipe is not a GEC.
Click to expand...
That rule [250.64(C)] is not for GEC connections. It is for wire-type GEC splicing.
 
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don_resqcapt19 said:
I don't know why you would need to make a splice to connect a tap conductor. I never said you could make a splice without using some type of irreversible connection, I only said you can tap to the GEC without using an irreversible connection.
Click to expand...

In my eyes if the gec does not terminate at the panel then the tap conductors are splices.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
In my eyes if the gec does not terminate at the panel then the tap conductors are splices.
Click to expand...
But the continuous requirement is for GEC conductors, not GEC tap conductors.

End of 250.64(D)(1)...
... The tap conductors shall be connected to the common grounding electrode conductor by exothermic welding or with connectors listed as grounding and bonding equipment in such a manner that the common grounding electrode conductor remains without a splice or joint.
Click to expand...
 
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