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Where in the code does it state that the branch circuit for a cooktop / oven for new construction has to have 4 wires (2 hots, 1 neutral, and 1 ground wire)? Thanks.
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Guest
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Re: cooktop / oven
wont you allways have a neutral for the low settings on a cooktop appliance?
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: cooktop / oven
It is not the intent of the Code to require you to plan for something that may be done in the future. However, it is a great idea to do the planning and to provide for the future. This is a design issue, not a Code issue.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: cooktop / oven
I ran into exactly this problem a couple years ago.Inspector insisted we needed a neutral to a cook top that had pigtail with 2 hots and ground and no neutral.To shut him up we added a neutral wire nuted off inside cook top.We had 4 wires at junction box but he insisted it have neutral wire that went to nothing.To keep from holding up a closing we gave in
I ran into exactly this problem a couple years ago.Inspector insisted we needed a neutral to a cook top that had pigtail with 2 hots and ground and no neutral.To shut him up we added a neutral wire nuted off inside cook top.We had 4 wires at junction box but he insisted it have neutral wire that went to nothing.To keep from holding up a closing we gave in
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a.wayne3@verizon.net
Guest
Re: cooktop / oven
Jim same as replacing a 3 wire cord with a 4 wire cord cap and wire both neutral and ground terminate at the same place in the
range but between it is code compliant that`s what is the key.Rob1kva You are so right 120 v clocks and lighting is where there is needed a Neutral.As lomg as we provide an isolated ground to a receptacle then well did our job today.The rules change every 3 years or so here at least.Now our AHJ wants to see the ufer on final after being sighned off on ufer rough inspection
we have a meeting tommorow with the county tomorrow.All Contractors, subs and all involved with this growth Burst are invited I have a list to give out there well lets see where it goes ????????????
Jim same as replacing a 3 wire cord with a 4 wire cord cap and wire both neutral and ground terminate at the same place in the
range but between it is code compliant that`s what is the key.Rob1kva You are so right 120 v clocks and lighting is where there is needed a Neutral.As lomg as we provide an isolated ground to a receptacle then well did our job today.The rules change every 3 years or so here at least.Now our AHJ wants to see the ufer on final after being sighned off on ufer rough inspection
we have a meeting tommorow with the county tomorrow.All Contractors, subs and all involved with this growth Burst are invited I have a list to give out there well lets see where it goes ????????????
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: cooktop / oven
With that "Logic" I shoud install a 60 amp circuit just in case they replace a cooktop with a 30 amp load with one that draws a higher load. Not happening.
Totally false statement. :roll:
With that "Logic" I shoud install a 60 amp circuit just in case they replace a cooktop with a 30 amp load with one that draws a higher load. Not happening.
stew
Senior Member
- Location
- federal way,washington
Re: cooktop / oven
all of the ranges I have ever worked on require the neutral because the neutral goes to the common bus for the cook top and the common to the range elemenmts as well as the clock and dtimer. Check the net for electric range wiring diagrams and locate any generic diagram and you wiil soon see why the standar range plug has 4 leads. 2 hot a neutral and an egc lead.
all of the ranges I have ever worked on require the neutral because the neutral goes to the common bus for the cook top and the common to the range elemenmts as well as the clock and dtimer. Check the net for electric range wiring diagrams and locate any generic diagram and you wiil soon see why the standar range plug has 4 leads. 2 hot a neutral and an egc lead.
chris68
Member
- Location
- Denver, CO
Re: cooktop / oven
Perhaps Electricmanscott's 30 amp range is a bad example. It would seem the minimum range ampacity is 40A (210.19 3)...of course this assumes a min of 8.75Kw. Here in Denver, the ranges are all assumed to be 50A or greater, anyone find that in the code book, maybe that's just our trade practice.
Also reading the same article, looks like NEC specs the nuetral to be not less than 70 percent of the branch-circuit rating. I think that would rule out not having a nuetral. I understand the existing branch circuit installation provisions of 250.140 mentioned earlier.
Perhaps Electricmanscott's 30 amp range is a bad example. It would seem the minimum range ampacity is 40A (210.19 3)...of course this assumes a min of 8.75Kw. Here in Denver, the ranges are all assumed to be 50A or greater, anyone find that in the code book, maybe that's just our trade practice.
Also reading the same article, looks like NEC specs the nuetral to be not less than 70 percent of the branch-circuit rating. I think that would rule out not having a nuetral. I understand the existing branch circuit installation provisions of 250.140 mentioned earlier.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: cooktop / oven
Chris my example is for a cooktop, many of which have different load requirements. Also some cooktops are straight 240 requiring no neutral. Therfore no need to install one.
Chris my example is for a cooktop, many of which have different load requirements. Also some cooktops are straight 240 requiring no neutral. Therfore no need to install one.
russ
Senior Member
- Location
- Burbank IL
Re: cooktop / oven
On a job right now with 150 electric ranges.
No clock or lights and no internal wiring connected to the neutral terminal. The contractor is not installing neutral conductors.
All thou they are free standing units they are wiring them direct with FMC whips.
Russ
On a job right now with 150 electric ranges.
No clock or lights and no internal wiring connected to the neutral terminal. The contractor is not installing neutral conductors.
All thou they are free standing units they are wiring them direct with FMC whips.
Russ
chris68
Member
- Location
- Denver, CO
Re: cooktop / oven
Russ, if the contractor is not installing neutral conductors on 150 electric ranges, how do you feel about 220.22? Are FMC whips granted an exemption I'm not aware of? Can you cite an article that allows this? I don't think a FMC whip is that great of idea for a heavy appliance that slides in and out of a small recessed area...seems like it would damage the conduit and conductors. I would be interested in finding out more about your application.
Russ, if the contractor is not installing neutral conductors on 150 electric ranges, how do you feel about 220.22? Are FMC whips granted an exemption I'm not aware of? Can you cite an article that allows this? I don't think a FMC whip is that great of idea for a heavy appliance that slides in and out of a small recessed area...seems like it would damage the conduit and conductors. I would be interested in finding out more about your application.
Re: cooktop / oven
I believe 220.22 applies to feeders and service loads.. we are talking about branch circuits.....250.140, 250.134, 250.138 sums it up. I remember this code change ( in 1996 I think)and the intent was not to use the grounded conductor to ground current carrying parts.
I believe 220.22 applies to feeders and service loads.. we are talking about branch circuits.....250.140, 250.134, 250.138 sums it up. I remember this code change ( in 1996 I think)and the intent was not to use the grounded conductor to ground current carrying parts.
chris68
Member
- Location
- Denver, CO
Re: cooktop / oven
I guess I'm getting turned around. Feeder provisions of 220.22 talk about the importance of only derating the ampacity by 70 percent for a neutral, but your saying it's allowed to skip running a neutral altogether for the branch circuit.
Maybe I'm misreading 250.142 b ex 1 (the provision I was eventually referred to from 250.140)...doesn't it say you're only allowed to skip the neutral on existing installations? What's your interpretation.
I guess I'm getting turned around. Feeder provisions of 220.22 talk about the importance of only derating the ampacity by 70 percent for a neutral, but your saying it's allowed to skip running a neutral altogether for the branch circuit.
Maybe I'm misreading 250.142 b ex 1 (the provision I was eventually referred to from 250.140)...doesn't it say you're only allowed to skip the neutral on existing installations? What's your interpretation.
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