cooktop / oven

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Re: cooktop / oven

If you have any books telling you how to do your job...now would be the time to get them out.

[ July 11, 2004, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: chris68 ]
 
Re: cooktop / oven

Chris, Chris, Chris, not only are you reading things from the NEC with tunnel vission, you are not reading the posts here the way they are writen.

Now, once again, if you are happy installing this conductor have at it.

As Pierre mentioned, if ever you are in your own business or estmating for a company you work for you will see there is no room to waste pennies if you are going to be competitive.

You keep asking for someone to quote a code reference for something that doesn't exist and then you quote a reference that would only pertain if a three wire circuit were needed which is not the issue.

We have asked you to tell us what you would do with this useless conductor but you don't answer.

Ask your boss if he would want you doing this if he had 500 units to wire.

Roger
 
Re: cooktop / oven

Chris I may not have been clear, I think Roger and I do agree. :) :cool:

If the range was straight 240 (like a water heater) the NEC does not require a neutral to be brought to it.

If the range is 240/120 the NEC has, as long as I know required a neutral. but not a grounding conductor.

The NEC allowed us to use this neutral as the grounding means.

Where would you stop with the neutral?

At the receptacle?

Or would you use a 4 wire outlet, cord cap and cord so you could leave the neutral unused in the range?

Bob
 
Re: cooktop / oven

I would install a 4 wire recepticle. The new appliance installed in the kitchen would be ok either way. Are your builders using used appliances?

Still waiting for any given reference material to be quoted on how to hook up a range.
 
Re: cooktop / oven

Chris68
For a stand alone range W/Oven yes I rough in a 4-wire circuit and on trim I install a 4-wire receptacle. But if I have spect's that call for a 240 volt circuit for a cook top or one of those newer convection oven's and it does not need a neutral then it won't get ran!
 
Re: cooktop / oven

Chris,
Still waiting for any given reference material to be quoted on how to hook up a range.
Click to expand...
I think I may see what the problem is now. :D

Roger
 
Re: cooktop / oven

according to code...aren't all cooking appliance branch circuit, feeder, and service calculations determined on specifications?
 
Re: cooktop / oven

Thank you for telling us how to hookup a cooktop...not part of this discussion. Could you supply us with oven/range instructions? This appliance would have both an oven to bake cookies in and a stovetop to boil water on.
 
Re: cooktop / oven

Originally posted by chris68:
Thank you for telling us how to hookup a cooktop...not part of this discussion.
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That actually is the whole point of the discussion. Read the entire thread from the beginning. :roll:
 
Re: cooktop / oven

Originally posted by chris68:
Thank you for telling us how to hookup a cooktop...not part of this discussion. Could you supply us with oven/range instructions?
Click to expand...
Chris the code sections you have referenced treat a cooktop the same as a range. :roll:

From 220.20
....For a feeder or service supplying household electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units,.....
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From 250.140
.....Frames of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units,...
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From 250,142(B)
Exception No. 1: The frames of ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units,.....
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From 220.19
The demand load for household electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, and other household cooking appliances
Click to expand...
 
Re: cooktop / oven

I don't think there is anything else to be said. Everyone has been quite clear. My only hope is that you are not an inspector.
 
Re: cooktop / oven

Original question: "Where in the code does it state that the branch circuit for a cooktop / oven for new construction has to have 4 wires (2 hots, 1 neutral, and 1 ground wire)? Thanks."

Am I the only one thinking this as something you boil water on and bake cookies in?
 
Re: cooktop / oven

In an earlier conversation you guys were trying to point out differences in terminations...that is a completly valid point.

July 06, 2004 10:10 PM Electricmanscott says, "Chris my example is for a cooktop, many of which have different load requirements. Also some cooktops are straight 240 requiring no neutral. Therfore no need to install one."

Still waiting for any given reference material to be quoted on how to hook up a range.

[ July 11, 2004, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: chris68 ]
 
Re: cooktop / oven

Chris I take that question for what it says. A "Cooktop" and an "Oven". Two separate appliances. Otherwise I would expect to see the term "Range" used. Maybe I am wrong. :confused:
 
Re: cooktop / oven

Originally posted by chris68:
Original question: "Where in the code does it state that the branch circuit for a cooktop / oven for new construction has to have 4 wires (2 hots, 1 neutral, and 1 ground wire)? Thanks."
Click to expand...
Nowhere.

This is my last post in this thread, and the last time I will say this, if it will make you happy to install conductors that aren't needed or required go for it. There is nothing in the NEC that says you can't be wasteful or take yourself out of the bid competition. :D Wait can some one provide a code that says this is not true? ;)

Roger

[ July 11, 2004, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
 
Re: cooktop / oven

I've cited 3 references:

2002 Code-The neutral conductor of a 3-wire branch circuit supplying a household electric range, a wall mounted oven, or a counter mounted cooking unit shall be permitted to be smaller than the ungrounded conductors where the maximum demand of a range 8.75kW or more rating has been computed according to Column C of Table 220.19 but shall have an ampacity of not less than 70 percent of the branch-circuit rating and shall not be smaller than 10 awg."


1999 McGraw-Hill's Handbook, "On modern ranges the heating elements of the surface units are controlled by five-heat unit switches, The surface-unit heating elements will not draw current from the neutral unless the unit switch is in one of the low-heating positions. This is also true to a greater degreee as far as the oven-heating elements are concerned, so the maximum current in the neutral of the range circuit seldom exceeds 20A. Because of that condition, Exception No. 2 permits a smaller-size neutral than the ungrounded conductionrs, but not smaller than No. 10."


2002 Stallcup's, "A new branch-circuit installation for ranges, cook tops, ovens, clothes dryers, including junction boxes or outlet boxes that are part of the circuit shall be permitted to be bonded and grounded with an equipment grounding conductor. However, an isolated grounded (neutral) conductor shall also be installed. For further information concerning this type of installation, see 250.114, 250.134, and 250.138. (See Figure 11-104)"

Can anyone insisting a neutral isn't necessary on a new installation provide an excerpt from something supporting their arguments?

[ July 11, 2004, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: chris68 ]
 
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