Dang Home inspectors.

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infinity said:
I equate tests like this with HI's using fancy testers to test for voltage drop. They plug in their new tool and press the button which reveals at full load that receptacle on the other side of the house has a 6% VD. IMO it's kind of meaningless unless the testing could find a bad connection or something that may end up as dangerous.
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iwire said:
IMO this often is nothing more than a pissing match with the EC trying to prove they are smarter than the HI.
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The only time I have ever gotten into a "pissing" match with a home inspector was over voltage drop calculations.

First off the HI was useing a cheap off-brand analyzer that he had purchased through a class he was taking for home inspectors. He didn't even understand the concept of voltage drop or how to calculate. All he knew was how to plug in his gadget and he didn't even read the instructions for that.

I purchased the top of the line circuit analyzer for that time ( Ideal) and did read the instructions. This reduced the amount of voltage drop by a considerable amount but still over the 5%. I then measured the distance form the panel to the first receptacle and then to the rest of the receptacles involved and calculated the voltage drop manually. Sure enough the tester was almost perfect ( hard to get an exact measurement of cable in walls ).

After doing all the test and even having the head electrical inspector for the county give this guy a call and explain the 5% VD is a recommendation the HI would still not listen.

This was a cheap little town home and the wiring was as good as it gets. The owner could not afford to rewire the place just to please a home inspector and there was nothing that an experienced electrician or code inspector would have written up.
 
A note from buyers I believe.
"The GFCI outlets that are currently installed in the home have a medium RCD sensitivity
rating which are good for fire protection only. Being installed in the home and in living
areas the GFCI's should have a high RCD sensitivity rating for direct contact/life injury protection...."


I don't know where they are getting their information. I am not used to a GFCI being referred to as an RCD,
residual-current device. Wikipedia has a nice definition but you will notice that some of the information is
not correct, or maybe just not current when they talk about GFCI and AFCI.

The Extech manual was a good read.

 
growler said:
After doing all the test and even having the head electrical inspector for the county give this guy a call and explain the 5% VD is a recommendation the HI would still not listen.
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The HI report is not a code inspection. It is a report on the condition of the home and it's systems. The voltage drop exists even if it does not violate the code, even if the voltage drop is not effecting the appliances. The HI produces the report, it is up to the seller and buyer to decide what to do about it.


I have never begun to understand the hatred so many ECs have for HIs.

HIs are income generators, they also very often find real issues that should be fixed that code inspectors cannot do anything about.
 
ptonsparky said:


The Extech manual was a good read.
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I'm not sure how much faith I would have in Extech. Amprobe makes a similar tester that gives a pass or fail but allows .3 seconds ( that's 300 milliseconds).

I checked serveral sites to see if I could find the 25 millisecond standard. Hubbell states their GFCIs have a.025 sec. trip time or 25 milliseconds. I also found an ACHI site that states that the trip time for a GFCI is 1/40 of a second or 25 milliseconds ( have no idea where they got that information).

But I pulled out the installation and test intructions for a P&S GFCI and all they require is a push of the test button and reset. All I can find is that they all require a once a month test to make sure they are still working.
 
ptonsparky said:
A note from buyers I believe.
"The GFCI outlets that are currently installed in the home have a medium RCD sensitivity
rating which are good for fire protection only. Being installed in the home and in living
areas the GFCI's should have a high RCD sensitivity rating for direct contact/life injury protection...."


 I am not used to a GFCI being referred to as an RCD,
residual-current device.

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If the buyer is from Europe or most anywhere influenced by the UK they may understand a GFCI as an RCD. They do have different levels of protection when useing RCD. They do use the RCD much the same as we use a GFCI.
 
RCDs are usually 100mA or more and they are not for protection of people. The closest comparison would be to a Class B GFI here in the US.

I just had a call today to make a buyer happy. They are really putting this guy through the ringer, knowing that his house (a beautifully restored 200 year old stone farmhouse with additions and in-ground pool) has been on the market for a year now. Electrically they didn't give him too much of a problem, but they brought in some specialist consultant to assess the 15 year old septic system. He wrote up a frightening report which has the bank refusing to grant the mortgage until issues are corrected. Among other things, he demanded a camera inspection of all the outdoor pipes, both tanks to be emptied, cleaned out and a visual inspection to be performed, and about 10 other issues to be corrected. He also happens to be buddies with a local contractor who does this kind of work. The homeowner was smart enough to find another contractor to make some of the corrections and it turned out that some of this guy's judgement is clearly in question (not with the bank, though...). This kind of stuff makes me sick.
 
growler said:
You may get to be a home inspector yet.

I happen to know they make plenty of 30 ma RCDs and they are used for the protection of people.
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I stand corrected, but with a disclaimer ;)

It seems that not all EU countries require RCDs in the lower mA range for protection from electrocution in general use and most of those that do require have only begun doing so within the last 10 years or so (I left in 2006). In the 14 years I lived in Poland I never once saw an RCD outlet or breaker for receptacles. They were all main RCD devices protecting the entire premises.

I guess times have changed.
 
30mA or even 100 mA GFCI or "RCD" do not meet the Class A GFCI standard, which is pretty much entirely intended for people protection.

But at the same time they are pretty effective at lessening the risk to people by faulted equipment. Many class A GFCI trips probably would also trip a Class B device.

I wouldn't want to be the one to decide when class A is required and when class B is required though if we were to relax the rules from what they are now, which is basically people protection = class A and equipment protection = class B.
 
kwired said:
30mA or even 100 mA GFCI or "RCD" do not meet the Class A GFCI standard, which is pretty much entirely intended for people protection.

But at the same time they are pretty effective at lessening the risk to people by faulted equipment. Many class A GFCI trips probably would also trip a Class B device.

I wouldn't want to be the one to decide when class A is required and when class B is required though if we were to relax the rules from what they are now, which is basically people protection = class A and equipment protection = class B.
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I may be mistaken but I believe a 'Class B' GFCI is a very specific item that is only to be used with certain existing swimming pools. I am not even sure if they can still be purchased.

The devices used under the NEC with 30 mA or 100 mA trip settings are not 'GFCIs' they are GFP.

GFCI is reserved for people protection and GFP for equipment protection.

At least that is my understanding.:)
 
iwire said:
I may be mistaken but I believe a 'Class B' GFCI is a very specific item that is only to be used with certain existing swimming pools. I am not even sure if they can still be purchased.

The devices used under the NEC with 30 mA or 100 mA trip settings are not 'GFCIs' they are GFP.

GFCI is reserved for people protection and GFP for equipment protection.

At least that is my understanding.:)
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You may be right, you hardly ever see the term class B used and that may be the reason why.

You also see misuse of terms even by those that are regarded on a higher level of professionality - especially when the first two correct words of the term are "ground fault" or "GF" for short. Seems like whatever follows doesn't get as much attention as it should and then we get a lot of confusion sometimes as to what exactly is being discussed.
 
growler said:
I happen to know they make plenty of 30 ma RCDs and they are used for the protection of people.
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iwire said:
For work under the NEC?
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NO, not for work under the NEC.

I'm not sure how many countries use The British Standard or BS 7671 but there are other code books. Many people believe that their methods are actually safer than ours.

I think it would be impossible to use their wiring methods and use the NEC.


The statement was that RCDs are used for the protection of people and not just equipment in Europe and other parts of the world.
 
PetrosA said:
It seems that not all EU countries require RCDs in the lower mA range for protection from electrocution in general use and most of those that do require have only begun doing so within the last 10 years or so (I left in 2006). In the 14 years I lived in Poland I never once saw an RCD outlet or breaker for receptacles. They were all main RCD devices protecting the entire premises.

I guess times have changed.
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I only stated that the buyer must be from Europe or some area influenced by the UK (United Kingdom). The British Standard does allow for different levels of protection. That they do use RCDs for the protection of people. An RCD does work similar to a GFCI.

The do still have the main RDC (100 ma ) but there are areas that require additional protection.

When you say things have changed the British changed their wire color codes and I'm certainly glad we have not had to go through that.
 
growler said:
I only stated that the buyer must be from Europe or some area influenced by the UK (United Kingdom). The British Standard does allow for different levels of protection. That they do use RCDs for the protection of people. An RCD does work similar to a GFCI.

The do still have the main RDC (100 ma ) but there are areas that require additional protection.

When you say things have changed the British changed their wire color codes and I'm certainly glad we have not had to go through that.
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Well I have seen some installations that could benefit from color code changes:roll:
 
I do work for a guy that buys and flips houses.

A few times he had a HI write him. He emailed me the issue. Many times it was just something that failed if it was installed under the current code cycle but was fine when it was installed. If it was an easy fix or really required fixing, I would go fix it. If it was going to get into too much time and money then I would send my customer a picture of the inspection sticker and the code article that was being enforced at that time.

One issue was the GFCI receptacle was behind an access panel for a whirlpool tub. I forget the year of installation now, but it was legal then. Could have moved it, but a short email made that problem go away.
 
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