Dealing with customers and existing code violations

[Eric23]

Looking for advice on dealing with new customers with existing code violations who don't want to spend the money to fix things. Most of my work is commercial/Industrial and I find that in my area inspectors are more likely to overlook a lot of things in these types of settings or if it's a building they've been to 100 times they don't even bother taking a look around. Because of this when I bring something to a building owner's attention I got the answer we all get " it's been like that for 20 years and nobody's said anything" or " I'll fix it when the inspector calls me on it" ... Obviously I guess it depends on the severity of issue but when you guys run into this kind of thing how do you handle it ? Do you refuse to do the work unless they agree to bring things up to code so you're covered the next time an inspector walks in and you were the last person there ? The problem I see is there are so many guys that will come in and do the work without even discussing code violations with the customer. I guess I should also specify but I'm talking about violations in systems that you are working on specifically not just walking around picking out things unrelated to your job

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[infinity]

Unfortunately the EC has little power to get someone to fix something if it's outside of the scope of their contracted work. You can refuse to work for these clients but someone else will do the job so you're just taking money out of your pocket.

Some will argue that by doing any work you'll be one the hook for the existing problems but in many jurisdictions that simply isn't true.

 

[Little Bill]

I may mention something I see as a violation but if it doesn't directly affect the work I'm doing I don't push it. If the violation would prevent my work from passing inspection, then I tell them it has to be fixed or I can't do the work.

 

[Eric23]

I'm talking about violations that impact what I'm doing specifically. I was always under the impression like stated above that because I'm the last one there I'm the one responsible. Not just in case of a catastrophic failure but also my reputation as a new contractor in the area. For example my specific problem now is that I'm trying to feed some new 480 equipment in a commercial space where the existing 480 tap was a hack job and was Daisy Chained off load side lugs using all different size wires to feed multiple disconnects. All the customer wants me to do is change one disconnect from single phase to three phase and connect their equipment. This could easily be done using what's there but it's completely illegal

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[Eric23]

I'm talking about violations that impact what I'm doing specifically. I was always under the impression like stated above that because I'm the last one there I'm the one responsible. Not just in case of a catastrophic failure but also my reputation as a new contractor in the area. For example my specific problem now is that I'm trying to feed some new 480 equipment in a commercial space where the existing 480 tap was a hack job and was Daisy Chained off load side lugs using all different size wires to feed multiple disconnects. All the customer wants me to do is change one disconnect from single phase to three phase and connect their equipment. This could easily be done using what's there but it's completely illegal

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I suggested removing all these illegally tapped disconnects and putting in a panel but they don't want to do it and the funny thing is they just had an Underwriters inspection, fire inspection, and then electrical inspection, and nobody said a word

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[kwired]

I'm talking about violations that impact what I'm doing specifically. I was always under the impression like stated above that because I'm the last one there I'm the one responsible. Not just in case of a catastrophic failure but also my reputation as a new contractor in the area. For example my specific problem now is that I'm trying to feed some new 480 equipment in a commercial space where the existing 480 tap was a hack job and was Daisy Chained off load side lugs using all different size wires to feed multiple disconnects. All the customer wants me to do is change one disconnect from single phase to three phase and connect their equipment. This could easily be done using what's there but it's completely illegal

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Simply explain it is wrong and you don't need to take on the liability of doing it wrong.
Also explain if inspector is doing his job correctly he should turn it down - which if you did it and then got turned down it likely cost more then just doing it right the first time.

 

[gadfly56]

Simply explain it is wrong and you don't need to take on the liability of doing it wrong.
Also explain if inspector is doing his job correctly he should turn it down - which if you did it and then got turned down it likely cost more then just doing it right the first time.

Your other option is to do the work as contracted and if the inspector says anything about it, it's a change order to remedy. Myself, I'd feel uncomfortable doing work I knew was a violation but others may find it not a problem under the circumstances.

 

[kwired]

Your other option is to do the work as contracted and if the inspector says anything about it, it's a change order to remedy. Myself, I'd feel uncomfortable doing work I knew was a violation but others may find it not a problem under the circumstances.

Is one thing to already have a contract and find there is such problems and another to bid knowing the problem exists and to cover resolving the problem in the bid.

 

[gadfly56]

Is one thing to already have a contract and find there is such problems and another to bid knowing the problem exists and to cover resolving the problem in the bid.

The dilemma remains the same, regardless of when the condition is discovered. The client doesn't want the installation done in a code-compliant manner. Do you:

1. Refuse to do a non-compliant installation and walk away.
2. Install the non-compliant work, hoping you get "caught" so a solution is forced on the client.
3. Install the non-compliant work, run the risk of the inspector not catching it, and have it floating around out there with your name on it.

 

[__dan]

Initially I will test the customer's appetite for the work or appetite for spending money. Most likely I would be looking to get paid initially just for writing the recommended corrections and violations letter. If they don't want to pay for an opinion of what their exposure is and what mitigating path forward they may take, I would guess they are only interested in cheap crap work and they should find someone else to perform it.

When the crap hits the fan, it tends to splatter everyone.

 

[ramsy]

I suggested removing all these illegally tapped disconnects and putting in a panel but they don't want to do it and the funny thing is they just had an Underwriters inspection, fire inspection, and then electrical inspection, and nobody said a word..

The 1st sentence on my invoice back side:

Refusing Work: To protect the public from court sanctions work is refused where Licensing, Workers Comp, or Fire Code violations provide legal cause for property insurance to void claims.

No references are needed to establish this AHJ authority granted Insurance carriers who deny claims for cause. Most property owners get this, regardless of culture, native language, or country of origin.

Establishing my option to refuse work gets clients attention, but property owners seem most impressed with alternatives that illustrate common approaches of rip-off artists that void insurance policy or claims. There is credibility in articulating a solution to a problem, much more if a choice is given.

Your attorney should be consulted to determine if those adverse to involving owners, typical Tenants/Managers, can be dealt with by signing invoices with contract-enforceable line items handwritten on invoice, such as: "Emergency repair only - Client Warrants Permanent Repair Order.. in Process"

 

[Eric23]

This is an add on to an original contract that I accepted in order to get more work from an HVAC contractor who's electrician didn't show up on numerous occasions... I'm beginning to think the guy just didn't want to do the job because it was such a mess. I said I would do it without looking at it first

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[Eric23]

This is an add on to an original contract that I accepted in order to get more work from an HVAC contractor who's electrician didn't show up on numerous occasions... I'm beginning to think the guy just didn't want to do the job because it was such a mess. I said I would do it without looking at it first

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The load side #12 taps go off to feed three 480 fused discos, one is single phase 30a the other two are 3 phase 20a.... They're removing one piece of equipment off of one disconnect and want me to use it to feed a new piece of equipment that's three-phase 20 amp 480.. then they're adding 240v 60A Electric heater into the space that's being fed off that 100 amp 3 phase disconnect in the picture but theres no room in the panel and they're going to blow these fuses because it's already maxed out with equipment..

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[Eric23]

The load side #12 taps go off to feed three 480 fused discos, one is single phase 30a the other two are 3 phase 20a.... They're removing one piece of equipment off of one disconnect and want me to use it to feed a new piece of equipment that's three-phase 20 amp 480.. then they're adding 240v 60A Electric heater into the space that's being fed off that 100 amp 3 phase disconnect in the picture but theres no room in the panel and they're going to blow these fuses because it's already maxed out with equipment..

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Basically the owners says if it's not going to burn the building down I don't want to hear about it

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[Eric23]

Basically the owners says if it's not going to burn the building down I don't want to hear about it

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That 3-phase 100 disconnect they tapped off of is feeding a primary side of Transformer that feeds 120/208 to a main lug panel thats full and has a 60a sub panel off of it that's also full

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[Eric23]

This is literally my first job out on my own and I don't want to make a bad name for myself by doing a hack job

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[ptonsparky]

Don’t worry about the stuff you don’t touch. Walk away if your not comfortable with the scope or confines of the project. The customer will walk if he doesn’t like your proposal, you have the same option, walk.

 

[kwired]

That 3-phase 100 disconnect they tapped off of is feeding a primary side of Transformer that feeds 120/208 to a main lug panel thats full and has a 60a sub panel off of it that's also full

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Method used to make taps and the fact there is no secondary protection on the transformer are the biggest issues I see. Total load could very well be under 100 amps.

100 amps @ 480 3 phase is about 83 KVA. Equivalent 240 volt single phase circuit would have to have about 350 amp rating.

 

[ramsy]

This is literally my first job out on my own and I don't want to make a bad name for myself by doing a hack job

Unfamiliar work is not always bad, if allowed to propose code-compliant options, or pull permits with plans stamped by EE's, or oversight by planning departments.

Also, if owners are willing to make you a Statutory Employee for project duration, legally you can do/cument whatever they demand.

However, "Joint & Several Liability" can make a 1% responsible independent contractor 100% liable for damages, especially if you can't pull permits, and client refuses AHJ compliance. GL policies may also void claims for negligence, so anyone can confiscate your assets.

Exercising your limits & legal boundaries may require some walking. Refusing illegal work by walking is a critical exercise for survival.

 

[kwired]

Also, if owners are willing to make you a Statutory Employee for project duration, legally you can do/cument whatever they demand.

That can get complicated easily I would think. If they can prove that you basically have history of operating as a contractor they may be able to put full blame of any problem on you. If project is one that lasts for say two years and you didn't work for anyone but your "employer" you can pull this off easier. If the project only lasts a few days or few weeks and you also took on service calls and other small projects for other clients during that time - you will probably still be deemed a contractor and not an employee of that owner.