Dealing with past code violations that passed inspection?

[Llortus]

Long time lurker, first time poster. My electrical experience has not spent much time in the commercial/industrial world other than fire/security alarm installs when in the Air Force.

A friend of mine owns a warehouse that had a section of roof fail. Along this section of roof runs a 3" conduit that carries majority of circuits from a 40 space panel. All the original work seems to of been done in a very workman like manner, would be willing to bet a "mill electrician" did the work as there are some copper crimps covered by rubber boots in some of the junction boxes; seems they chose to use 3" conduit to place all of the electric panels on same wall, avoiding sub panels in the building.

My friend has asked me to give him a bid on repairing damaged electric and high bay lights so he can use the space now that roof has been replaced. I asked him if his insurance policy had a clause in it that would repair to current code compliance? He asked me to provide a quote as though it does. Now I'm feeling the job may be more than I want to chew off.

There is an inspection sticker on the service that shows it was inspected, does this mean that the AHJ approved the 21+ conductors in the 30+ feet of 3" conduit was ok, no further derating required, the wire on the 20amp breakers appears to be 12 AWG Stranded THWN. I counted 21 wires coming out of the 3" conduit in the pull box 30' away from the one you see in the upper right of the first picture. The roof collapse fortunately only damaged the conduit on the top of the pull box.

He is a friend, so I would prefer not to just walk away. Hopefully your guidance will at least confirm my concerns or perhaps provide me an exception that existed in 1989 when I'm guessing electrical was upgraded from original 1950's install. (Still waiting to find conduit against roof that has been pierced by the self tapping screws the roofers used.)

 

[kwired]

What is the load on the conductors in question?

With that many conductors adjustments factors do apply, but if lightly loaded and supplying fixed loads may not actually require increased conductor sizes.

The last picture looks like some conductors maybe are spliced onto smaller conductors - so maybe they were adjusted in ampacity correctly?

 

[tom baker]

If the panels are on one wall, consider wireway above with short nipples down to each panel. No de/rating is requiredif you do not exceed 30 current carrying conductors in a cross section of wireway, the wire way makes future ads and changes easy.

 

[kwired]

If the panels are on one wall, consider wireway above with short nipples down to each panel. No de/rating is requiredif you do not exceed 30 current carrying conductors in a cross section of wireway, the wire way makes future ads and changes easy.

Difference between wireway and raceway is the allowable "fill". The wireway will have more free air flow through it than a raceway at it's allowed maximum fill.

 

[Llortus]

Currently building is used for unheated storage, he has converted 50% of Fluorescent lighting load to Type B bypass LED Fixtures. High bay lighting is currently 250W Metal Halide Lamps. Facility has no drawings. Electric system installed for Leopardi Food Products, currently used for dry, unheated storage. About 13,000 sq foot.

 

[augie47]

The presence of an inspection sticker does not necessarily mean the work you are looking at passed inspection. On commercial buildings it is not unusual for non-compliant and non-permitted work to be added after an initial inspection. Assuming you are going to have and inspection, I would discuss the situation with your AHJ to see how they address existing wiring.

 

[pv_n00b]

I've always followed the rule that if you touch it you own it. So if your work changes existing work or gets close to existing work and that existing work was not code compliant then it is up to you to bring it up to code. The other issue that might come up is the AHJ requiring older code-compliant work to be brought up to the current code. The chance of this happening increases with the amount of work you are doing.

 

[ActionDave]

The 30 conductors wouldn't worry me that much if they are not loaded up too heavily, and they probably are not. I don't know when the derating rules came into the NEC. I'd fix what's there and not worry about it if that's what the owner insists, but I'd let him know that there is no better time than now to get things fixed up and do any upgrades. It'll always cost more in the future.

 

[Llortus]

Do these two options cover my issues?
Issue: Upon inspection of the pull box feeding the majority of the damage I found that the 3” conduit on the left side of the box contains at least 22 current carrying conductors; Additional evaluation would be required to determine how many of the neutrals would also be considered current carrying conductors.

Option 1: Leave as found, request AHJ’s Electrical Inspector review the installation and consider the building utilization and approve to continue use as installed in 1989 after damage is repaired.

Option 2: Make electrical alterations to remediate issue.

• Reduce number of conductors in 3” by running new circuits via conduit or MC Cables to get number of currents carrying circuits below 20.
• Table 310.15(C)(1) would require a current derating of 50% for 10-20 current carrying conductors.
• To prevent the conductors rerouted from being counted as spares, all abandoned wires will be marked with green tape and tied to ground.
• Replace breakers feeding conductors in 3” conduit with 15A breakers.
• Wire in conduit is #12AWG THHN wire with a current rating of 30A, with the 50% derating would reduce this to 15A.
• After repairs are complete, loads shall be applied and 15A breakers will be checked to ensure loads are under 12A.
• Circuits changed to 15A breakers with outlets that are 20A should be replaced with 15A outlets.

 

[petersonra]

• To prevent the conductors rerouted from being counted as spares, all abandoned wires will be marked with green tape and tied to ground.

I Don't believe that code would allow you to re-identify wires as equipment grounding conductors unless they are size 4 or larger.

In any case what difference would it matter if they were counted as spares? Spares are not current carrying conductors.

Do these two options cover my issues?
Issue: Upon inspection of the pull box feeding the majority of the damage I found that the 3” conduit on the left side of the box contains at least 22 current carrying conductors; Additional evaluation would be required to determine how many of the neutrals would also be considered current carrying conductors.

Option 1: Leave as found, request AHJ’s Electrical Inspector review the installation and consider the building utilization and approve to continue use as installed in 1989 after damage is repaired.

Easiest.

Option 2: Make electrical alterations to remediate issue.

• Reduce number of conductors in 3” by running new circuits via conduit or MC Cables to get number of currents carrying circuits below 20.

Ok

• Table 310.15(C)(1) would require a current derating of 50% for 10-20 current carrying conductors.

Ok

• To prevent the conductors rerouted from being counted as spares, all abandoned wires will be marked with green tape and tied to ground.

I don't believe code allows you to re-identify wires as equipment grounding conductors under size 4. In any case what difference does it make if they are counted as spares? Spares are not current carrying conductors.

• Replace breakers feeding conductors in 3” conduit with 15A breakers.

Ok

• Wire in conduit is #12AWG THHN wire with a current rating of 30A, with the 50% derating would reduce this to 15A.

Ok

• After repairs are complete, loads shall be applied and 15A breakers will be checked to ensure loads are under 12A.

I don't believe this is required. You would need to do a load calculation on every branch circuit just like you would for a new installation.

• Circuits changed to 15A breakers with outlets that are 20A should be replaced with 15A outlets.

Ok. You probably want to make sure that any existing 20 amp outlets are not used for loads that exceed 15 amps.

 

[Llortus]

Bob, thanks, for the review.

I Don't believe that code would allow you to re-identify wires as equipment grounding conductors unless they are size 4 or larger.

In any case what difference would it matter if they were counted as spares? Spares are not current carrying conductors.

Referencing 2023 NEC, a note on "Number of Conductors" specifies you need to count spare conductors.
Discussion of need to count spares.

If those circuits relocated were abandoned in place would that make them no longer spares? Does the code differentiate between abandoned and spare? Don't know that I would expect to be able to pull a selective 6 or 7 wires out of the pack of 24 that have sat in this conduit for 30 years.

 

[dm9289]

One thing to keep in mind depending on building size if the 30ft you spoke of is less than 10% of circuit length you do not have to adjust ampacity.

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

Are those panels and CB enclosures service disconnects.

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

One thing to keep in mind depending on building size if the 30ft you spoke of is less than 10% of circuit length you do not have to adjust ampacity.

310.15 (A) (2)

 

[Llortus]

One thing to keep in mind depending on building size if the 30ft you spoke of is less than 10% of circuit length you do not have to adjust ampacity.

Interesting...What code section would that fall under? Sound to good to be true?

 

[dm9289]

Interesting...What code section would that fall under? Sound to good to be true?

 

[Llortus]

Are those panels and CB enclosures service disconnects.

I believe the boxes on the right are service disconnects that feed to main breakers on the three distribution panels. I have not removed cover from cable tray to know for sure yet. Then number of conduits leaving tray seem to support. On outside wall there is a small padmount transformer, looks to be a 37.5 KVA, that feeds a meter base and service entrance to cable tray.

 

[dm9289]

I believe the boxes on the right are service disconnects that feed to main breakers on the three distribution panels. I have not removed cover from cable tray to know for sure yet. Then number of conduits leaving tray seem to support. On outside wall there is a small padmount transformer, looks to be a 37.5 KVA, that feeds a meter base and service entrance to cable tray.

Looks like you possibly have a working space issue with tray below

 

[Llortus]

One thing to keep in mind depending on building size if the 30ft you spoke of is less than 10% of circuit length you do not have to adjust ampacity.

2014 NEC 310.15(A)(2) explained
Since it is greater than 10' would not apply. Had trouble finding as it is not in the latest version. Thanks for trying.

 

[augie47]

Interesting...What code section would that fall under? Sound to good to be true?

Note carefully the exact wording of this is shown in post #16
Exception: Where different ampacities apply to portions of a circuit, the higher ampacity shall be permitted to be used if the total portion(s) of the circuit with lower ampacity does not exceed the lesser of 3.0 m (10 ft) or 10 percent of the total circuit.
added: (I posted this prior to seeing your post #19...but you caught that)