Decora switch for a disposal

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Jim W in Tampa said:
And just how will the service man know the light means off and not on ?
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The light is not mentioned in 404.7. . .The "up = ON" is. No mention of text as indication is in 404.7.
 
Cavie said:
breaker lockouts are very common in Sw Florida. At least three in every panel. Wh, DW, AH
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I am using more of them now than ever.Its the only way we can make inspectors happy about work space.Like i said before they only correct the code issue and will never get used.Dont like them but its a 10 second $2 cure.
 
I thumb my nose at the NEC...

I thumb my nose at the NEC...

I thumb my nose at the NEC on this one!!

If the Code has such a h-on about the fact that Decoras aren't "indicating" then they need to go the extra mile and prohibit them for all uses!! :razz:
(Oh great, now I've given them an "idear".)

Get real..if you're gonna be working on a disposal, you better make damn sure the breaker is off (if not cord-connected) and not rely on the switch in the first place!!! I have seen them weld closed since most toggles (and standard Decoras) have such crappy contacts they can't handle the repetitive inductive switching of the motor. And it would only take a bump from a kid, or homeowner or placing your tools in the wrong spot to turn on any style of switch by accident!

Oh yeah, in my apt. I have a 20 amp rated Decora on my disposal (which is hard wired) and have never had a problem figuring out if it was "off" or "on". :D

In the McMansions I frequently work on ALL devices are Decora!! (Including the disposal switch in the kitchens.) I don't think someone who paid millions for the design of his/her home is gonna change the disposal switch to a toggle just to satisfy a draconian provision of the Code.

Like the AFCI caper, I forsee a lot of switches being changed after the inspection because of this stupidity.
 
big vic said:
We use breakers with locks for disconnects for residential water pumps all the time. Never had an inspector question it.
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Is the breaker within sight of the pump?

The fact that we do something all the time does not in anyway prove it meets code.

The NEC requires motors larger than 1/8 HP to have an indicating disconnecting means within sight.
 
mxslick said:
I thumb my nose at the NEC on this one!!
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I have no idea why, and I also have no idea why that you often seem to believe that you by yourself could write a better code.

The code has been developed over many years (over 100) by people with access to a lot more information than you and I.

Oh yeah, in my apt. I have a 20 amp rated Decora on my disposal (which is hard wired) and have never had a problem figuring out if it was "off" or "on". :D
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You live there, I would expect you to know how it works.

In the McMansions I frequently work on ALL devices are Decora!! (Including the disposal switch in the kitchens.) I don't think someone who paid millions for the design of his/her home is gonna change the disposal switch to a toggle just to satisfy a draconian provision of the Code.
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1) The cost of their house does not change the code rules.

2) They can keep the decora if the they have the electrician cord and plug connect the disposal or install an indicating switch under the sink.

Like the AFCI caper, I forsee a lot of switches being changed after the inspection because of this stupidity.
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I do not see this as 'stupid' and are very surprised you do especially considering your signature.

Lets keep in mind a few things.

1) The code is written for all situations, not just for the disposal.

2) When a stranger comes on the scene to repair an appliance the appliance is usually broken so they are not going to hear that that the power is on.

3) People make mistakes, I am very sure at least a couple Decoas have been installed upside down.

4) I do not believe this requirement has anything to do with the switch being bumped it is about knowing the switch is open without guessing the switch is installed right side up or that your looking at a 3 or 4 way switch.

It is a simple, logical requirement that is easily complied with by the installation of a cord and plug or an additional switch.

What is the problem?
 
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iwire said:
Is the breaker within sight of the pump?

The fact that we do something all the time does not in anyway prove it meets code.

The NEC requires motors larger than 1/8 HP to have an indicating disconnecting means within sight.
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The pumps are usually at least 50' from the house and down the well casing 100' below ground
 
mxslick said:
If the Code has such a h-on about the fact that Decoras aren't "indicating" then they need to go the extra mile and prohibit them for all uses!!
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Dude its not the code it was one inspector that had a bad day because he couldnt get a H-on the night before.
Luckily common sense prevails the majority of the time.
 
big vic said:
The pumps are usually at least 50' from the house and down the well casing 100' below ground
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LOL Having a motor 100' below ground is an unusual circumstance.

There are few exceptions for a disconect being required to be in sight from a motor.....and you underground pumps fit one of them.

430.102(B) Motor. A disconnecting means shall be located in sight from the motor location and the driven machinery location. The disconnecting means required in accordance with 430.102(A) shall be permitted to serve as the disconnecting means for the motor if it is located in sight from the motor location and the driven machinery location.

Exception: The disconnecting means shall not be required to be in sight from the motor and the driven machinery location under either condition (a) or (b), provided the disconnecting means required in accordance with 430.102(A) is individually capable of being locked in the open position. The provision for locking or adding a lock to the disconnecting means shall be permanently installed on or at the switch or circuit breaker used as the disconnecting means.

(a) Where such a location of the disconnecting means is impracticable or introduces additional or increased hazards to persons or property

(b) In industrial installations, with written safety procedures, where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the equipment
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100' underground is about impracticable as it gets for locating a disconnecting means.

So for this particular situation a breaker lock at the panel and a disconnecting means at the controller is NEC compliant.

The exception does not apply to a dishwasher.


By the way inside at the house you are also required to have a disconect within sight of the pump controller.

430.102 Location.
(A) Controller. An individual disconnecting means shall be provided for each controller and shall disconnect the controller. The disconnecting means shall be located in sight from the controller location.
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There are no exceptions for that requirement.

Regardless of what 77401 says "its not the code it was one inspector" read the NEC and you will see the inspector made the call based on the NEC requirements.
 
As I have said many, many times before, I am just plain not to smart so I have a question about this thread and some of the statements made here.

Not picking on any one person but just looking for answers so please don?t think that I have singled out one person?s post.

Jim makes a statement of using a breaker lock for a disposal when the switch is not indicating.
Can this breaker lock be used?
The section referenced was 422.31(B) - [(B) Appliances Rated Over 300 Volt-Amperes or 1/8 Horsepower.]
Then we have 422.32 that makes this statement. [422.32 Disconnecting Means for Motor-Driven Appliance.]

My question is, Is there a difference between something that is ?RATED? at a horse power and a ?MOTOR? itself?

I know that 430.109 states that a ?MANUAL SWITCH? is required to have a HP rating. I also know that 440 and 675 have requirements that the disconnect is to have a HP rating.

Is it possible that 422.32 is addressing an appliance that has a ?MOTOR? and 422.31 is addressing an appliance that does not have a motor but is ?RATED? in horse power?
I ask this because 422.32 does not state, ?For Motors Over 1/8 Horse Power but instead simply says ?Motors?

The answer as I see it is simple, if it has a motor a disconnect is required to be in-sight and it is to be indicating.
 
jwelectric said:
Is it possible that 422.32 is addressing an appliance that has a ?MOTOR? and 422.31 is addressing an appliance that does not have a motor but is ?RATED? in horse power?
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No....it's not possible. ;)

Actually I don't know that, anything is possible.

However I firmly believe 422.31 is addressing both motor and non motor appliances.

The answer as I see it is simple, if it has a motor a disconnect is required to be in-sight and it is to be indicating.
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Yes in one shape or form, like a unit switch that complies with 422.34 and has a breaker lock installed.
 
77401 said:
This should be a poll but has ANYONE everused or known anyone to use a breaker lock? on a residential job?
NOT ME!
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All the time. On every new house in Delaware, you are required to have at least one of these beasties in your panel, for the dedicated smoke detector circuit! We do lots of modular home hookups, and they have breaker locks installed on the water heater, furnace, dishwasher, and A/C circuits much of the time.
 
marinesgt0411 said:
If you want to keep it a decora switch just get a lighted decora switch light on its off light off its on to me thats indicating. ....
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Ummm .... I would have to vote NO on this one. You see, those indicating switches allow some pass-thru current to illuminate the bulb. Placing one in the "off" position does not fully disconnect power to the circuit.

Someone relying on that type of "disconnect" can be subject to electric shock while trying to work on a piece of equipment so connected.
 
Back to the OP, the decora switch would have been allowable if there was either a cord & plug connection under the sink or if there had been a standard single pole switch under the sink or if there had been a lock out on the circuit breaker feeding the branch circuit ( it would not need to be in sight of the disposal under 422.31(B) because the word "or" is used in the article). 422.31(B) is what required the disconnect. 422.35 is what requires the ON/OFF indication. (As per the inspector.)
 
With all the lockouts being required it seems like its time for panel doors to have a cheap lock already in them.But then inspectors would need to find something else to pick on.The reinspect charges make them plenty.
 
DaveBowden said:
Back to the OP, the decora switch would have been allowable if there was either a cord & plug connection under the sink or if there had been a standard single pole switch under the sink or if there had been a lock out on the circuit breaker feeding the branch circuit ( it would not need to be in sight of the disposal under 422.31(B) because the word "or" is used in the article). 422.31(B) is what required the disconnect. 422.35 is what requires the ON/OFF indication. (As per the inspector.)
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Dave the part I made red is only true if the appliance has it's own unit switch per the exception to 422.32

A disposal does not have it's own unit switch and it is more than 1/8 HP.

That being the case we must apply the rules of 422.32

422.32 Disconnecting Means for Motor-Driven Appliance.

If a switch or circuit breaker serves as the disconnecting means for a permanently connected motor-driven appliance of more than 1/8 hp, it shall be located within sight from the motor controller and shall comply with Part IX of Article 430.

Exception: If a motor-driven appliance of more than 1/8 hp is provided with a unit switch that complies with 422.34(A), (B), (C), or (D), the switch or circuit breaker serving as the other disconnecting means shall be permitted to be out of sight from the motor controller.
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It is quite clear, the exception even reinforces it.
 
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