Dedicated ciruit for dining room?

[jumper]

I do if the room on the opposite side was a living room, for instance. Not necessarily in the toe kick but generally that is where it would be.

I know I am slow Dennis, but I just do not understand how a receptacle in the toe kick of a cabinet fits into a wall space requirement. I do not know why I am so dense today.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I know I am slow Dennis, but I just do not understand how a receptacle in the toe kick of a cabinet fits into a wall space requirement. I do not know why I am so dense today.

I believe the cabinet to be a divider and thus it is considered a wall. It that wall/cabinet were in the living room then a receptacle would be needed that is not part of the sabc. Think of a peninsula that divides the kitchen from the living room.

 

[hurk27]

Ah, the good ole' dining room. Usually the least demanding room (in electrical terms), we've somehow managed to wildly over-engineer it.

It's listed as one of the areas that needs AFCI protection.

It's also listed as an area that needs to be served by a GFCI, 20-amp, SABC. Note that only a TOTAL of two SABC's are required for all of the areas served by the SABC's, and you've set the stage for every kitchen counter recep to be served by one, while the dining room is served by the other.

Since the dining room circuit is an SABC, it is not allowed for the room lighting to be on it. If you had, for example, a food warming table, those heat lamps could be plugged into the SABC.

Sure, it's "possible" that come Thanksgiving, Granny might have all the kin over, and set up coffee pots and crock pots in the dining area ..... but, really now .... isn't this the trade equivalent of wearing both suspenders and a belt?

The above in red would be a violation of 210.52(B)(3)

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

The above in red would be a violation of 210.52(B)(3)

Caught it in post 15

 

[jumper]

I believe the cabinet to be a divider and thus it is considered a wall. It that wall/cabinet were in the living room then a receptacle would be needed that is not part of the sabc. Think of a peninsula that divides the kitchen from the living room.

Okay, I get it now. I got hung up when RENO said

In my review of the 2011, I also came across this gem at 210.52(A)(4): it appears that now we get to add receptacles to the toe-kicks of kitchen cabinets. Anyone else think this new section deserves its' own thread?

 

[hurk27]

Caught it in post 15

Yea got a long winded phone call, and just hit post, wish we still had that message pop up to tell us if a post has been made like it use to.

 

[renosteinke]

Right - I caught my error as to 'splitting' the SABC's.

As for the "clarification" .... I didn't ever think there was any doubt that walls that did not have a counter in front of them needed receptacles (spaced per 210.52(A)). Nor did I see any confusion as to the 'back sides' of counters that were used to divide spaces.

I see 210.52(A)(4) as requiring receptacles in the toe-kick space on the front side of the counters. I don't think I've ever seen receptacles in that location.Here's why I read the section that way:

210.52(A)(1) says 'measured along the floor line.' 210.52(A)(2) expands 'wall space' to indlude 'around corners,' 'fixed panels,' and 'free standing counters.'

Perhaps you wish to assert that your usual kitchen counter is not 'free standing.' I'll grant you that. Yet, 210.52(A)(4) only says that countertop receptacles will not be considered as meeting the requirement for receptacles spaced according to the 'floor line' rule. As I see it, this opens the entire floor line of any counter to the spacing requirements. Free-standing, attached to the wall, cantilevered from the walll - no matter, the floor line counter is still counting.

I hope that's not what they meant .... but it sure looks like that's what they said. I guarantee the same HI crowd that now claims that NM is not allowed attached to the joists over 'damp' crawl spaces will suddenly be discovering all manner of kitchens that lack receptacles along the floor line.

Heck, I even have a personal stake in this. My own kitchen needs remodelling. Counters all around, no open wall space at all, and a passageway / aisle down the middle. 18 ft. of counter, 5 ft. of wall where the stove and fridge will sit. With at least five receptacles serving the countertops, applying the 'floor line' rule would add at least three receptacles to the toe kicks - receptacles that (as I see it) cannot be on an SABC. I can't call that aisle a 'hall' because 210.52 specifically mentions 'kitchens.' Heck, all of that kitchen is either counter or walkway. Toe-kick receptacles only give me another place for the mop water to go. It just doesn't make sense.

To be fair, I wasn't all that happy when dining rooms were added to the 'required' list for SABC's. I think the code is really micro-managing design, and exceeding its' scope- but that's another topic, for another day.

Yet again, the 'clarification' needs clarification.

 

[jumper]

Reno, did you read the ROPs I posted. The new section was added to clarify that you cannot use a c-top rec to satisfy a wall space requirement.

 

[hurk27]

I see 210.52(A)(4) as requiring receptacles in the toe-kick space on the front side of the counters. I don't think I've ever seen receptacles in that location.Here's why I read the section that way:

210.52(A)(1) says 'measured along the floor line.' 210.52(A)(2) expands 'wall space' to include 'around corners,' 'fixed panels,' and 'free standing counters.'

I think if you research it enough you will find that the toe kick in a cabinet is not wall space as cabinets are considered furniture, if cabinest could be considered wall space then us running LV conductors through cabinets for LV lighting would be a violation would it not?

Free standing counter tops where wall space is exposed below it I guess could be considered "wall space" but even thats pushing it.