dedicted circuit for microwave?

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iwire said:
One final thought, if the listing is not what counts can I install a CFL in a porcelain key less in a closet?

Did the addition of a CFL change the incandescent fixture into a fluorescent fixture?

By the same token does the addition of a fan to a microwave change it into a range hood?

JMO, Bob
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That fact that you added a CFL to an incandescent fixture does not change it to a fluorecent fixture, IMO. however why does the microwave have to be an "either" "or", it is a combo. It is both a range hood and microwave.

Since it is both I believe that you would have to follow the rules of 422.16(B)(4) whether we like them or not.

Yes this is my opinion only.

By the way, if the fixture is not listed for CFL should we be putting CFL in it????
 
Well, I just looked at my range hood, the label says it's a Nutone brand "Listed Fan" and has "522B" under the UL symbol.

My attempts at searching the UL site have left me frustrated and empty-handed. :mad:
 
Dennis Alwon said:
however why does the microwave have to be an "either" "or", it is a combo. It is both a range hood and microwave.
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According to the UL tag mine is not 'both' it is a Household Microwave.

Since it is both I believe that you would have to follow the rules of 422.16(B)(4) whether we like them or not.
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It s true we have to follow the rules if we like them or not and I do. :)

However an inspector has to enforce the rules as written and the CMP did not say microwaves or microwave combo. They said range hoods.

Lets say you had a contract that said you must supply the 'range hood' as part of the contract.

Would you expect to be buying a Microwave combo unit for $400 or $500 or would you expect to supply a $50.00 range hood?

I will go look for the CMP comments on this subject. :)
 
infinity said:
IMO if you argued that point (label says microwave) with an inspector you would lose every time.
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We will have to disagree on this point. :smile:

IMO the inspector would be going beyond what the code requires.

If the inspector can ignore the UL listing than so can we...right?
 
Here is the ROP for 422,16(B)(4)

17-21 Log #219 NEC-P17
(422-16(B)(4) (New) )
Final Action: Accept in Principle in Part
Submitter: Don A. Hursey, Durham County Inspections Department
Recommendation:
Add new text to read as follows:
Permanently installed range hoods shall be permitted to be permanently connected or cord and plug connected.
Substantiation:
Many times range hoods are removed and replaced with a "microwave type" range hood. Allowing cord and plug connection will make
the installation much easier for the homeowner because no "electrical change" to the wiring system will be required.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept in Principle in Part
Add a new section to read as follows:
422.16(B)(6) Range Hoods. Range hoods shall be permitted to be cord-and-plug connected with a flexible cord identified as suitable
for the use on range hoods in the installation instructions of the appliance manufacturer, where all of the following conditions are met.
(1) The flexible cord shall be terminated with a grounding type attachment plug.
Exception: A listed range hood distinctly marked to identify it as protected by a system of double insulation, or its equivalent, shall
not be required to be terminated with a grounding-type attachment plug.
(2) The length of the cord shall not be less than 450 mm (18 in.) and not over 900 mm (36 in.).
(3) Receptacles shall be located to avoid physical damage to the flexible cord.
(4) The receptacle shall be accessible.
(5) The receptacle shall be supplied by an individual branch circuit.
Panel Statement:
The permission to use cord-and-plug connection provides the ability to upgrade to a combined microwave range hood. The panel
added the additional requirements to ensure a safe installation of a combined microwave range hood.
Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 12
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IMO it clearly shows that 422.16(B)(4) is about a listed range hood that may at some later point be replaced with in the panels words 'a combined microwave range hood'
 
I'm still looking, but here's an update. I found the following at the UL website regarding microwaves:

The basic standard used to investigate products in this category is UL 923, "Microwave Cooking Appliances".
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The Listing Mark for these products includes the name and/or symbol of Underwriters Laboratories Inc. (as illustrated in the Introduction of this Directory) together with the word "LISTED" , a control number, and one of the following product names "Microwave Oven" , "Microwave Food Warmer" , "Microwave Cooking Appliance" , "Microwave/Oven Vent Hood Fan" , or other appropriate product name indicated in the individual Listings.
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It seems as though commercial hoods are the only appliances listed as "hoods" and much attention is paid to them. Household range hoods are not so easy to locate.

After following a bunny trail from the commercial hoods area, several tiers more generalistic, I landed on the most basic level of description, here.

The standards used to investigate products are identified in the general Guide Information for each product category. There may not always be a published standard for investigating a product to determine its acceptability for Listing or Classification. If no applicable standard is available, UL will exercise its judgment in the selection of applicable requirements from related standards and other sources to develop the requirements to cover uses and conditions for which specific requirements did not previously exist.
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I believe there is no listing standard for household range hoods, so they "make it up as they go." I will keep looking. :)
 
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georgestolz said:
I believe there is no listing standard for household range hoods, so they "make it up as they go." I will keep looking. :)
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There must be one as the CMP make reference to it. :smile:
 
Personally, I'd like 422.16 (4) better if read something like "supplied by an additional 20A SABC" (and other weasel-words as required ...) so that other things, such as under-cabinet lighting could be added after the fact without violating the code.

It seems ridiculous to require an entire circuit for a microwave that's not likely to require the entire circuit, especially since said microwave may never even exist ...
 
tallgirl said:
so that other things, such as under-cabinet lighting could be added after the fact without violating the code.
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Cord and plug connected or hardwired?

Cord and plug under cabinet lights can plug into the SABCs.

Hardwired not on the SABC but almost any other circuit.

Personally I would make sure my under cabinet lighting was on a 15 amp circuit so that I would only have to stuff 14 AWG into the small fixtures.:smile:
 
iwire said:
Cord and plug connected or hardwired?

Cord and plug under cabinet lights can plug into the SABCs.

Hardwired not on the SABC but almost any other circuit.

Personally I would make sure my under cabinet lighting was on a 15 amp circuit so that I would only have to stuff 14 AWG into the small fixtures.:smile:
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Cord and plug.

I'm not sure plugging under cabinet lighting in the counter top receptacles is, uh, aesthetically pleasing. And there's a requirement that the counter top SABC receptacles not be above a certain height, so it's not like you could put one someplace "out of the way".

Maybe piccies would be in order.
 
Thanks, Marc. I think you're right on the money. Your second link didn't work, it requires the person to enter in the info on the search page first and search on their own.

mdshunk said:
Which tells me that resi range hoods are in the category GPWV - "Fans, Electric". This is covered on page 91 of the '06 White Book.
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So, looking at this, we have:

This category covers rangehoods for permanent connection to the power supply or for cord-connection to the power supply.
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It covers rangehoods.
Fans intended for mounting directly on cooking equipment are investigated in conjunction with the cooking appliance and Listed as a part of the accessory to the cooking appliance.
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So a Microwave/Hood combo is a microwave with a fan accessory.
The Listing Mark for these products includes the UL symbol (as illustrated in the Introduction of this Directory) together with the word LISTED, a control number, and the product name ??Fan,?? ??Electric Fan?? or ??Fan Accessory,?? or other appropriate product name as shown in the individual Listings.
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So, IMO, a range hood is a "fan" and a microwave is a "microwave".

Therefore, 422.16(B)(4) does not apply to microwaves, IMO.
 
George , You often put a smile on my face, no eception with the last post , you must be fun to work with.


"So, IMO, a range hood is a "fan" and a microwave is a "microwave".

Therefore, 422.16(B)(4) does not apply to microwaves, IMO."

I agree , thanks for doing the leg work Marc and george.:)
 
tallgirl said:
I'm not sure plugging under cabinet lighting in the counter top receptacles is, uh, aesthetically pleasing.
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I agree and have never installed cord and plug connected under cabinet fixtures for money.

I have installed in my own apartments and Mom's house. :)
 
iwire said:
I agree and have never installed cord and plug connected under cabinet fixtures for money.

I have installed in my own apartments and Mom's house. :)
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My faith in your sense of aesthetics has been restored :D
 
tallgirl said:
I'm not sure plugging under cabinet lighting in the counter top receptacles is, uh, aesthetically pleasing.
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At the moment, there doesn't appear to be any ANSI/NECA workmanship standard that addresses the aestetics of cord and plug connected undercabinet lighting. (110.12)
 
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