Desks in kitchens

[pierre]

My daughter and her friends prepare a large feast for the children at the daycare they work at. They use every counter space and part of the dining room for preparation. What is to say that this "desktop" will never see the same type of use. Does this mean it is a desktop partime? :wink:

 

[sandsnow]

Ya gotta draw the line somewhere!

Don't get too bogged down in the what if's

It's a desktop, not a countertop. Let it go.

 

[mario]

I gotta admit that this forum has definitely educated me ... 210.8(A)(6) says GFCI for counter tops ... I've always put GFCI's on "all" of the SA ckts, including the one in the dining area ... you guys got me reading "The Book" a whole lot more ... I agree with Sandsnow ... Let it go ...

 

[pierre]

Larry
I am curious, how did you decide it is a desk top?


Has anyone ever ask the building department what they think?
I would think this is really their call.

Where is Ryan, his experience is as a dual inspector, maybe he can shed some light on this.

 

[al hildenbrand]

I just spent some time with the search function in the electronic NECH. desk and desktop apparently don't appear in the NECH.

Counter and Countertop appear at least 88 times.

The interesting ones, to me, are 520.73 and 550.13(D)(5) where adjectives limit the idea of "counter".

210.8(A)(6) has no adjectives.

Therefore, IMO, counter used as desktop in a kitchen is still "counter", and must have GFCI protection for the receptacles at it.

I would argue that the desk receptacle installed below the countertop in the kneespace doesn't fall under 210.8(A)(6).

 

[tonyi]

If the desk is considered "countertop", then it looks like it maybe needs another receptical...

 

[al hildenbrand]

Yup.

 

[jim dungar]

Serious bakers often have a counter top at a "lower" height specifically for kneading bread dough. So unless it was built different than the other cabinetry, I would suggest it should be treated as a kitchen counter.

But if this is a counter which would require a receptacle above it, there are those (well at least one, right Charlie) that will say you can not have a receptacle on the wall below it.

 

[al hildenbrand]

So unless it was built different than the other cabinetry. . .

What do you envision as "built different"?

 

[LarryFine]

I'm going to repeat this question, as I thought it was important enough to mention when I was debating this with the inspector about the house. His response was interesting, but I'm not going to post it yet.

Let me guess: "Change it after I leave."

 

[pierre]

""Change it after I leave.""

That is such a BOGUS statement. Why inspect at all??????????????????????

 

[George Stolz]

I'm going to repeat this question, as I thought it was important enough to mention when I was debating this with the inspector about the house. His response was interesting, but I'm not going to post it yet.

Let me guess: "Change it after I leave."

Very close. :?

At the very beginning, when I stated that the purpose of my call was to question his requirement of a GFCI on the desk, he said, "Well, ask six different people, you'll get six different responses on that. My answer is to protect it and forget about it." This part of his response is what prompted me to start the poll here, because I agreed that he was probably correct.

I admitted I understood his stance, but explained that I believed a surge protector by design would trip the GFCI. So what do I do when I get the warranty call in a couple months?

"Well, I guess install a single receptacle or something, it becomes a design issue at that point."

(In my head, now...) So, ignore the fact that there are no exceptions in 210.8(A) for kitchen countertops? And ignore the fact that the "single appliance" being plugged into this receptacle that's causing the controversy will likely be a six-receptacle surge protector for the computer and it's trimmings? I already deal with warranty calls for (30mA GFP) AFCI's battling surge protectors, and in those circumstances I do not remove the AFCI. I do not simply remove AFCI protection when this "design issue" rears it's head. I do all I can do: swap the AFCI with a newer one, pray, and advise the customer to put their equipment somewhere other than a bedroom.

I detected that my argument was going to go nowhere, so I dropped the issue. I had already made the correction anyway. It was then that he 'softened the blow' by telling me he was already cutting me slack by not requiring the receptacle behind the sink, this time. But that is another story (I was at fault).

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Pick one either its a desk or its a counter.
If its a desk its fine as it is wired now and no gfci needed.
If its a counter then it needs spacing of a counter and gfci.What i see here is far over 5 feet so it needs 2 outlets both protected.
My opinion being there is so much counter space that it is indeed a desk.Bottom line is this is a local ahj call.Since he has called it counter then fix it to be one,add outlet for spacing and gfci protection.Would been best to see this coming and wired it on one of the SA circuit s and prtected it at no extra cost.

 

[al hildenbrand]

I think a desk can be slid or carried to other positions in the room.

A desk type counter is something else.

 

[jes25]

I think a desk can be slid or carried to other positions in the room.

My office has built in cabinets and a Formica top. I certainly refer to the work surface as my desk.

 

[luckyshadow]

I would say it's a desk. Thus no requirement for a GFCI. There is such a thing as a built in desk. Quite popular in the upscale homes.

 

[sandsnow]

Larry
I am curious, how did you decide it is a desk top?

Different Height than countertop
Height is correct for chair
designed to be "sat at" like an office desk - open underneath
In the tracts, identified as desk on plans and sales brochure
Has phone and usually Cat 5 outlets
usually wood finish vs. granite or tile
usually seperated from countertop - as in George's picture

Has anyone ever ask the building department what they think?
I would think this is really their call.

Where is Ryan, his experience is as a dual inspector, maybe he can shed some light on this.

If the code read"all work surfaces' then we would not be talking. The desk is a work surface. Type of work not specified

Just like appliance garages are a fairly new thing in kitchens and now addressed, this may be also in the future. Desks are pretty common now even for a "standard" tract house.

 

[ryan_618]

Where is Ryan, his experience is as a dual inspector, maybe he can shed some light on this.

Beleive it or not, I see this a lot in the city that I inspect for. Here is an example:

I call this a desk, not a kitchen countertop. I use the definition on "kitchen" in 210.8(B) (yeah, I know, it doesn't really apply here) to determine that a kitchen is an area. I also think that a kitchen is a function of the intended use. I do not require, nor reccomend, GFCI's for these desks.

 

[sparky_magoo]

IMO, it is a desk. To avoid the argument, I would have pushed to relocate the receptacle and phone outlets under the desk. This is where they belong. Then there would be less of an argument that the HO would plug in her crock pot on the desk.

 

[pierre]

Ryan
Your value to this forum goes beyond your experience as an electrical inspector, since you also inspect as a building inspector. I am assuming that you have many conversations with other building officials and you may have some insight here that we do not.

Have you or some other building official ever discussed this type of installation?

I read your post, and I understand how you feel on this topic. With that said is that an "official" decision or your personal opinion?