detached garage

[George Stolz]

Around here, it would likely fail for a 230.50(A) violation. :wink:

Just all in how you read it, I think.

 

[iwire]

I agree George 'subject to damage' is the call of the inspector / AHJ.

That said in this area it is not automatically assumed that all exposed cables are going to be damaged.

And you know what?

They do not get damaged, there are probably a few hundred thousand services similar to this and they are not having trouble.

My own house has SE cable from weather head to panel. I installed it.

It hides much better than conduit. 8)

 

[George Stolz]

I agree George 'subject to damage' is the call of the inspector / AHJ.

Once, I had a service fail (not inspection - the POCO refused to supply it) because I installed the service on a cantilever on the house. The power company guy swore up and down the Schedule 80 between the dirt and the cantilever a few inches above it would get destroyed.

The chief inspector (the same guy from the Shades of Gray thread) drove over to the POCO guy's office to ask him what 3" tall bulldozer was going to drive under the cantilever to hit the riser. :lol:

Then the POCO guy said that it was against the POCO's rules. The inspector asked, "Where is it? I can't find that."

"It will be." :lol:

We ended up having to install a goofy concrete curb around the pipe to get them to supply it. :roll:

At the end of the day, physical protection is one of the most vague concepts the NEC has to offer, IMO.

 

[iwire]

At the end of the day, physical protection is one of the most vague concepts the NEC has to offer, IMO.

It certainly makes the top 5.

Than through in POCO requirements (real or made up at the scene :roll: ) and you might as well concrete encase all RMC and hope for the best. :wink:

 

[mpd]

the only time you have to worry about physical protection for SE cable is aboveground installations only

 

[jwelectric]

From Page One

what type of conductors were installed to detached garage, I keep seeing alot contractors pulling SER aluminum underground, and then argue its not underground its in pvc

338.2 Definitions
Service-Entrance Cable. A single conductor or multiconductor assembly provided with or without an overall covering, primarily used for services, and of the following types:

Type SE. Service-entrance cable having a flame-retardant, moisture-resistant covering.

Type USE. Service-entrance cable, identified for underground use, having a moisture-resistant covering, but not required to have a flame-retardant covering.

?mpd? has referenced the SER cable and whether it is allowed to be installed underground as a feeder
As shown in 228.2 Type USE is identified for underground use but there is no mention of the cable being identified for underground use.

As far as the SE cable being used for an underground feeder I think that we would need to look at the Article that addresses underground feeders and branch circuit cable installations.

ARTICLE 340 Underground Feeder and Branch-Circuit Cable: Type UF

Should a cable be used for a feeder or branch circuit that is installed underground then this is the article of the NEC that would apply. Anything else would be a violation.

Notice that in 340.12(1) we are not allowed to use Underground Feeder cable as a service cable so now we go back to 338.

338.2 Definitions
Type USE. Service-entrance cable, identified for underground use, having a moisture-resistant covering, but not required to have a flame-retardant covering.

Yes I would reject a SE or SE-R installed underground whether in a raceway or not.

 

[iwire]

Yes I would reject a SE or SE-R installed underground whether in a raceway or not.

And IMO you would be wrong.

In order for me to consider your position please explain the following two issues.

1)Why does 300.5(D)(5) only require a any cable installed underground in a raceway to be listed for wet locations...not 'underground'.

2)Also what is the need for 230.30 (4)

If all SE cable is prohibited from underground use than this section is not needed.

As far as the SE cable being used for an underground feeder I think that we would need to look at the Article that addresses underground feeders and branch circuit cable installations

Mike read the scope of Article 340, it does not cover all underground feeders, it covers underground feeder cable type UF.

340.1 Scope.
This article covers the use, installation, and construction specifications for underground feeder and branch-circuit cable, Type UF.

Just because a cable is underground does not make it UF or mean that 340 applies.

:wink:

 

[mpd]

iwire

you have your opinion and I have mine, but I still say you are wrong, and that cable underground is a violation of the cable listing & the NEC art 338

 

[iwire]

iwire

you have your opinion and I have mine, but I still say you are wrong, and that cable underground is a violation of the cable listing & the NEC art 338

It is not just my opinion as your opinion is not just yours.

Mike agrees with you and he is no dummy by a long shot. 8)

On my side at least two inspectors / instructors feel it is not a violation.

I have been good enough to respond to the points you have brought up.

I notice an absence of the favor returned.

No one from 'your' side has tried to explain the conflicts with your position that I have brought up.

300.5(D)(5)

Single conductors

230.30 (4)

etc.

How can you expect to 'rule the day' if you can not explain away the conflicts. :?

 

[George Stolz]

I agree with Bob's read on this.

In the case of a raceway installed in the earth with a cable inside it, the raceway is installed underground. The cable's location is open to debate, but 300.5 states that they must be listed for wet locations. There is no mention of those cables/conductors being rated for "underground."

If what the opposition is believing is true, then THWN is illegal to install in a raceway underground, as it's only legal in Dry or Wet locations according to Table 310.13. It doesn't wash, IMO.

 

[mpd]

iwire

where does section 338.10 for exterior installations for feeders refer you to 300.5, if the listing was silent on installation and the cable is listed for wet location I would agree, but it is not the listing says aboveground,

 

[iwire]

where does section 338.10 for exterior installations for feeders refer you to 300.5,

We do not have to be directed to 300.5.

300.5 applies to all underground installations unless modified by some other section.

300.1 Scope.
(A) All Wiring Installations. This article covers wiring methods for all wiring installations unless modified by other articles.

As far as the listing.

The listing indicates it can not be DIRECTLY BURIED, there is nothing in the NEC that requires cables or conductors installed in raceways underground to be listed as 'underground' other than 230.30(4) that you pointed out.

 

[jwelectric]

Bob
To borrow from Charlie, what I posted was not what I was trying to say, and what I was trying to say is not what I posted.
I will try again and try to do a little better.

300.5(D)(5) was moved to 300.5(B) in the ?05 cycle and addresses cables and conductors installed underground. This requirement states that any conductor or cable that is to be installed underground must be listed for a wet location. It does not give me the rules for each cable or conductor. These rules I will find in the cable or conductor article.

Now I go to the SE Cable Article to see if the Cable is listed for wet location and what do I find in 338?

I find two difinations that describes SE cables. One states that it is identified for underground use and the cable to use for under ground installations.

338.2 Definitions
Service-Entrance Cable. A single conductor or multiconductor assembly provided with or without an overall covering, primarily used for services, and of the following types:

Type SE. Service-entrance cable having a flame-retardant, moisture-resistant covering.

Type USE. Service-entrance cable, identified for underground use, having a moisture-resistant covering, but not required to have a flame-retardant covering.

This section of code directly addresses the use of SE cables for underground use and overrides the general term used in 300.5(B). Notice that the definition of USE does not state direct burial, it only address the use of the cable for underground installations.

When I addressed 340 I was trying to show that there was a Article that addressed a cable that is to be used as a branch circuit or feeder. One could install MC cable as long as it complied with 330.10(A)(5).

What I was addressing was the use of SE-R installed in a raceway and buried. Unless this SE-R cable is identified for underground use then it is in violation of 338.

Using the train of thought that you have expressed in this thread could be a little misleading. For example, could I install NM-B in flex on the outside of a dwelling unit for the AC unit?

Using your thinking that the conductors in SE-R cable are THW conductors would be the same as me saying that the conductors in NM-B is dual rated at THHN/THWN.
The SE-R cable would need to be listed for underground installation no matter what kind of conductors are in it.

I hope that my post is now a little more in line with what I was trying to say.

 

[iwire]

Using your thinking that the conductors in SE-R cable are THW conductors would be the same as me saying that the conductors in NM-B is dual rated at THHN/THWN.

Mike, No that is not the case or my opinion.

Type NM is not listed for wet locations and can not be installed in a wet location as 300.5 requires for underground raceways.

Tye SE is listed for wet locations so it can be installed underground in wet locations.

If cables or conductors installed in raceways underground where generally required to be listed for underground use than as many of us have pointed out single THWN could not be installed underground.

Also if cables installed in raceways underground where generally required to be listed for underground use then they would be no reason for 230.30 exception line (4)

Please address that section so I understand what you think it is there for.

 

[mpd]

iwire

the listing says aboveground, when SE cable is installed as a feeder or branch circuit, sec 338.10 (B) (4) (b) says shall be installed in accordance with 225 part 1 and 396, I could care less about "ruling the day"

 

[jwelectric]

I will post both 2002 and 2005

2002
(d) Aluminum or copper-clad aluminum without individual insulation or covering where part of a cable assembly identified for underground use in a raceway or for direct burial.

2005
(4) Aluminum or copper-clad aluminum without individual insulation or covering where part of a cable assembly identified for underground use in a raceway or for direct burial.

This is about word for word all the way back to 1974.

The key to this exception can be found in these words, ?where part of a cable assembly identified for underground use in a raceway?

I take this to mean that the cable is required to be identified for underground installations.

 

[mpd]

mike

that code section is for service laterals for the grounded conductor, iwire and I both agree on that, we are still debating SER cable with a bare AL equipment ground used as a feeder to a detached garage underground

 

[iwire]

Mike exactly. 8)

Notice that it is specifically focused on one particular installation.

Specifically using a bare aluminum grounded conductor installed in a raceway.

If you change to copper SE or you use SER with the grounded conductor insulated than that section does not apply.

The reasonable conclusion is this.

As they had to specifically add that section regarding bare AL in cable in a raceway there is no general restriction on SE in a raceway underground.

 

[jwelectric]

You ask me to address 230.30 so I did but this has nothing to do with Article 338.

Whether the cable is copper or aluminum, THHW, THW, or TW will have no bearing on Article 338.

Article 338 is the part of the NEC that mandates how SE, USE or SE-R is to be installed.
SE-R cable is nothing more than SE cable that has the extra conductor so it will fall under the rules for SE cable.

338.2 is very clear that USE is identified as a cable for underground installation.

Read 338.10(B)(4)(b). Here it is clear that SE cable is for above ground installations ONLY.

Exterior Installations. In addition to the provisions of this article, service-entrance cable used for feeders or branch circuits, where installed as exterior wiring, shall be installed in accordance with Part I of Article 225. The cable shall be supported in accordance with 334.30, unless used as messenger-supported wiring as permitted in Part II of Article 396.

All three of the references in this rule refer to an above ground installation

The second part of 338.10(B)(4)(b) describes how to install USE cable

Type USE cable installed as underground feeder and branch circuit cable shall comply with Part II of Article 340. Where Type USE cable emerges from the ground at terminations, it shall be protected in accordance with 300.5(D).

Notice that USE is allowed to adhere to the rules for other underground cables.
I see a clear and distinct difference between SE and USE and their application. One (SE) is clearly for above ground and the other (USE) is for underground.

 

[mpd]

mike

I will second that, I have quoted that same code section during this post several times, seems clear to me, aboveground use only for SE or R cable when used as a feeder or branch circuit.