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iwire said:
electricman2 said:
Does not this preclude use of type SE, both style U and R underground in conduit or not or am I missing something?
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IMO that has to do with the limitation of SE to be direct buried as USE can be.
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UL looks at underground and direct buial as being different specifications. UL directory listing for Type USE and USE-2 starts by saying, "Indicates cable for underground installation including direct burial in the earth." which indicates that underground listing and direct burial listing can be together or separated.

Just as there is a difference between damp and wet, when you have underground you go one step further and include the possibility for long term or permanently submerged in water. Aluminum doesn't like that environment. 230.30X(4) says bare aluminum can only be used if the cable assembly is identified for underground use in a raceway.

David
 
mpd said:
iwire

look at 250.120 (B) 2005, my concern is that SE cable is listed for aboveground only, if that cable fills up with water, I will bet in less than a year, that detached garage has no equipment ground.
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And THWN is also only listed for above ground use, they are both listed for wet locations.

250.120(B) does not prohibit bare AL EGCs in an underground raceway or cable.

It only prohibits a bare AL EGC from direct contact with the earth.
 
mpd said:
dlhoule

so in other words, as long as it passes inspection who cares, I got a better one to use if you ever end up in court, I knew it was wrong but I did it anyway and it passed inspection
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No, that is not it at all.

If it is not against the code it is OK. 8)
 
mpd said:
dlhoule

so in other words, as long as it passes inspection who cares, I got a better one to use if you ever end up in court, I knew it was wrong but I did it anyway and it passed inspection
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When I am unsure of code interpretation I frequently ask the inspector having jurisdiction. Most of the time they are as knowledgeable or more so than me. While I would agree that I do not always just blindly accept their interpretation, I will if I am not sure. Now how would you like to have things done in your area? If I ask you a question, will you not answer and pass the job, fail the job or what. You have any of the above choices. If I wasn't sure and you wouldn't tell me what you wanted, I would have to rely on other sources which still may not satisfy you. I will not try to slip anything by an inspector. I want not only a safe installation but one that provides good design which the code frequently does not do.
 
iwire

art. 338.10 (B) (4) (b) 2005, refers you to art 225, part 1, for SE cable, why not 300.5
 
mpd said:
iwire

I do not see in the listing ok underground if installed in conduit,
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Can you show me the listing that tells me THWN, RHW, TW 'ok underground if installed in conduit'?

Take a look at 310.13 and see if those are listed as underground conductors.

IMO The raceway is underground, the conductors or cable in the raceway are in a wet location.

If I run UF cable in a RMC raceway underground which burial depth requirements would you require?

The depth for the cable or for the conduit?

Conduit does make a difference.

Bob
 
iwire

my point is the conduit is underground, the listing does not say ok for underground if installed in conduit, if it was tested for that purpose why was it not included in the listing, and 338.10 (B) (4) (b), SE cable for exterior installations, refers you to art. 225 part 1 & art 396 which are aboveground installations, why would the NEC not also refer us to 300.5 which is underground installation, and also look at 230.30 exception #4, which 338 also refers you to for when used as service entrance conductors
(these are all 2005 code references)
 
I'm with Bob. I have used SER underground in a raceway, and it's been approved. I have also approved it. UL white book does not prohibit it, yet it does prohibit USE from being used aboveground.

As Bob said, where is it stated that THWN is suitable for underground raceway installation?

230.30 exception #4 is for aluminum without individual insulation or covering. SE cable has covering for the bare conductor, so this exception seems to help qualify the installation of SE in an underground raceway.
 
j erickson

IMO the UL white book does prohibit it, by saying aboveground use, I will ask you the same question is in a conduit underground considered aboveground? is the cable indentified for underground use when installed in a raceway? 230.30 exception says it must be for a service lateral, 338.10 (B) (4) (b) for exterior installations for SE cable used as feeders refers you to art 225 part 1 and art 396, IMO that bare aluminum equip. ground underground will fail if that cable assembly gets damaged during installation, and you will not know until it needs to clear a fault and somebody gets hurt or killed, because there is no more equipment ground, not worth it,
 
mpd said:
j erickson

IMO the UL white book does prohibit it, by saying aboveground use, I will ask you the same question is in a conduit underground considered aboveground? is the cable indentified for underground use when installed in a raceway? 230.30 exception says it must be for a service lateral, 338.10 (B) (4) (b) for exterior installations for SE cable used as feeders refers you to art 225 part 1 and art 396, IMO that bare aluminum equip. ground underground will fail if that cable assembly gets damaged during installation, and you will not know until it needs to clear a fault and somebody gets hurt or killed, because there is no more equipment ground, not worth it,
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I disagree that the white book prohibits the installation. I believe the white book addresses installation as product is typically installed. As a cable wiring method. I don't think the UL white book addresses the cable use in a raceway. Doesn't specifically permit it or prohibit it.

What conductors are identified for underground use when installed in a raceway. All I can see is a requirement for rating for wet locations.

Again, as Bob asked: "Where does it specifically say that THWN, THW...is permitted underground if installed in conduit?"

225.4 references 310.8, which references dry, damp, and wet locations as well as those subject to sunlight.

300.5 (B) states "Cables and insulated conductors installed in enclosures or raceways in underground installations shall be listed for use in wet locations."

Doesn't this say it all?

While I might concede that se cable in conduit underground is not the best design choice, I don't see it as prohibited.

John
 
I TOTALY DISAGREE !!!

j_erickson

As electricians and contractors we are constantly battered about listing, labels, OEM STUFF!

AND inspectors cite it to an annoying if not impractible purpose.

You AND Bob [select] to ignore the stated non listing of the manufacturere for underground use of their product while they do list it only for above ground use.

Our NEC cites that a SE must be listed for underground and for install in conduit "underground"

This two stepping by you and Bob by saying"

"Well the code doesnt say we cant"

The code does say "you cant"

Override the OEM and the NEC with something other than your IMO.

The Language refutes you..

Have you both even considered why you are objecting?

When did you last do pull SE in undergrond conduit and then please explain.

Why.

You keep citing other conductors this way and that! Who cares?

Focus on SE cable and the code and its listings. Not the conductors contained therein.
 
j erickson

your reply and code sections make no sense to me, where does section 338 for SE cable refer you to 300.5, it refers you to code sections that are aboveground installations, you asked what conductors are listed for underground when installed in a raceway, we are talking about a cable assembly, section 230.30 exc. (4) says it must be identified for underground use in a raceway, is SE cable? and why does the UL white book say aboveground for SE cable and underground & direct burial for USE cable, did they just forget to put underground in the listing for SE and we are to assume it is okay in conduit? you said you have used and approved it, I will continue to fail it.
 
iwire

I will also stand by my post and continue to fail this type of installation, there is enough information that prohibits this type of installation, and I am suprised that you and j erickson fail to see it
 
mpd said:
section 230.30 exc. (4) says it must be identified for underground use in a raceway,
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Yes if we are using the bare AL as the grounded conductor.

This exception supports both our positions. 8)

What it tells us is if we use a bare Aluminum grounded conductor that is part of a cable assembly in a raceway underground it must be a cable Assembly listed for underground use.

So you got me there, if.... it's AL SE and I want to use the bare as the grounded conductor.

Now I ask you.

Where does this leave your position if I ran copper SE?
 
iwire

the problem is the cable is not listed for underground, there is no exceptions or alternate intallation methods when used underground, I do not care if it is bare grounded conductor or bare equipment ground it is still a violation, and as far as copper SE cable, I still think it violates the listing of the cable


I always thought you had a clue
 
mpd said:
iwire

the problem is the cable is not listed for underground, there is no exceptions or alternate intallation methods when used underground, I do not care if it is bare grounded conductor or bare equipment ground it is still a violation, and as far as copper SE cable, I still think it violates the listing of the cable
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MDP, if what you say is true there would be no need for 230.30 Exception 4 that you just pointed out. :p

Think about it. :wink:
 
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