dining room circuit

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stickboy1375 said:
And who would care or enforce a window AC unit plugged into a SABC? :roll:
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If the AC is installed in a "window" I say it is more portable and is likely removed when cooling season is over, but an opening made for an AC that serves no other purpose I say needs to be treated as a fastened in place appliance, and I see what people call "window A/C" used in that way quite often.

Do people get permits to put an AC into a window? Can you add a refirgerator or freezer in the garage or basement and not install new wiring to supply it?
 
kwired said:
If the AC is installed in a "window" I say it is more portable and is likely removed when cooling season is over, but an opening made for an AC that serves no other purpose I say needs to be treated as a fastened in place appliance, and I see what people call "window A/C" used in that way quite often.

Do people get permits to put an AC into a window? Can you add a refirgerator or freezer in the garage or basement and not install new wiring to supply it?
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Should permits be pulled when installing fixed equipment? Here yes. I do not know about Hooterville.

As to the frig or freezer. Can you just buy on and plug it in? Yes.

If it trips breakers should you add a circuit? Yes. Permit required? Here yes.

Would it need to be GFCI protected? In the above example yes.

As a responsible electrical contractor you would try to explain this (why and how things should be done) to your clients.

We are discussing what is required and not our personal feelings. Correct?
 
jxofaltrds said:
We are discussing what is required and not our personal feelings. Correct?
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Only what is required per code. I always keep personal experience/feelings for mere suggestion.

Once a person understands the basic requirements then they can choose to do anything beyond and above. What is a good design for me may be the worst for you, because you have a lot more field experience than i do.

I may want install 4 circuits per bedroom, but it is not required per NEC.
 
stickboy1375 said:
Yes! This is a SABC.... 210.52(B)(1), You can have more than then two min. required SABC's, but the dining room is required to be supplied off this requirement. So it can't serve anything else.... That means, you cant supply lighting, outside receptacles, etc. off this circuit.
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Sometimes Code is stupid. So if I have a deck off the dining room and there's a GFI on the deck it can't be fed off those outlets? This accomplishes what?
 
Speshulk said:
Sometimes Code is stupid. So if I have a deck off the dining room and there's a GFI on the deck it can't be fed off those outlets? This accomplishes what?
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Did that when I built except on the deck one was feed off a living room OK to the inspector. One off the mbr. ok. The other two - each fed off a seperate master bath circuit. Yes two 20 AMP mbr circuits one receptacle each then to one outside receptacle each. Failed. And I agree that it was NOT compliant but as you said "This accomplishes what?"
 
Speshulk said:
Sometimes Code is stupid. So if I have a deck off the dining room and there's a GFI on the deck it can't be fed off those outlets? This accomplishes what?
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After thought:

(B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry,
breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling
unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch
circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and
floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop
outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for
refrigeration equipment.

Can I have a room outside? Please note is says "of" a dwelling not 'in'.
 
kwired said:
If the AC is installed in a "window" I say it is more portable and is likely removed when cooling season is over, but an opening made for an AC that serves no other purpose I say needs to be treated as a fastened in place appliance, and I see what people call "window A/C" used in that way quite often.
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My feeling as well. If it's installed in a sleeve through the side of the wall then that's different from one taken in and out of a window.
 
Speshulk said:
Sometimes Code is stupid. So if I have a deck off the dining room and there's a GFI on the deck it can't be fed off those outlets? This accomplishes what?
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That is correct... And it accomplishes the same thing the required SABC in the kitchen does. Would you come off the kitchen SABC and feed a outside GFCI?
 
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aftershock said:
Is that in the 2002 cycle?
Edit: I just checked and it looks like it is. I have never been called on it.
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Haven't been called on what? The dining room must be served by a SABC... it can be off the kitchen SABC, or a separate 20 amp circuit, but that circuit can't stray off of the requirements of 210.52(B)(1) & (2)
 
stickboy1375 said:
Haven't been called on what? The dining room must be served by a SABC... it can be off the kitchen SABC, or a separate 20 amp circuit, but that circuit can't stray off of the requirements of 210.52(B)(1) & (2)
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Not true.

What about lighting outlets, switch outlets. They are not allowed on the SABC. What about 210.70(A)(1)?

I could have a dining room with no walls over 2' and not have to have any SABC in it. I could also put a 15 AMP circuit on one of those <2' walls and switch it.
 
stickboy1375 said:
That is correct... And it accomplishes the same thing the required SABC in the kitchen does. Would you come off the kitchen SABC and feed a outside GFCI?
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No, but my feeling is that requiring the dining room receptacles to be a dedicated SABC is pointless. How many appliances get plugged in on the dining room receptacle circuit? For that matter, how often are dining room receptacles used, period? Are they any different than the living room outlets? I'd argue that they're actually used less and we all just waste a lot of #12 when we could be running 15 amp circuits to dining room receptacles.
 
Speshulk said:
No, but my feeling is that requiring the dining room receptacles to be a dedicated SABC is pointless. How many appliances get plugged in on the dining room receptacle circuit? For that matter, how often are dining room receptacles used, period? Are they any different than the living room outlets? I'd argue that they're actually used less and we all just waste a lot of #12 when we could be running 15 amp circuits to dining room receptacles.
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I agree that today that we do not use these receptacles as much today but think of all the hot plates and such that are used during holidays or parties. If I had to guess I would guess this is why dining rooms needed SABCs.
 
Speshulk said:
No, but my feeling is that requiring the dining room receptacles to be a dedicated SABC is pointless. How many appliances get plugged in on the dining room receptacle circuit? For that matter, how often are dining room receptacles used, period? Are they any different than the living room outlets? I'd argue that they're actually used less and we all just waste a lot of #12 when we could be running 15 amp circuits to dining room receptacles.
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So because you don't use yours, you feel everyone shouldn't? Im not saying you are wrong, but I wire big houses, and let me tell you, they use them. You cant compare a condo to a McMansion, people have different lifestyles, the clients I work for entertain like crazy, its just what you are used to or not.
 
stickboy1375 said:
So because you don't use yours, you feel everyone shouldn't? Im not saying you are wrong, but I wire big houses, and let me tell you, they use them. You cant compare a condo to a McMansion, people have different lifestyles, the clients I work for entertain like crazy, its just what you are used to or not.
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Um . . . that makes no sense. A bigger house would typically have a bigger kitchen, which would make using the dining room outlets less likely than in a condo that has limited kitchen counter space.
 
jxofaltrds said:
I agree that today that we do not use these receptacles as much today but think of all the hot plates and such that are used during holidays or parties. If I had to guess I would guess this is why dining rooms needed SABCs.
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Ok, but even if you plugged in a couple hot plates, I'm still not sure how the outdoor outlet being connected to the circuit would have any effect.
 
Speshulk said:
Um . . . that makes no sense. A bigger house would typically have a bigger kitchen, which would make using the dining room outlets less likely than in a condo that has limited kitchen counter space.
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What does a bigger kitchen have to do with anything? Who entertains in the kitchen with the help in there? If you dont think its an issue, you can certainly just supply the minimum required two SABC's.... the choice is yours.
 
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stickboy1375 said:
What does a bigger kitchen have to do with anything? Who entertains in the kitchen with the help in there? If you dont think its an issue, you can certainly just supply the minimum required two SABC's.... the choice is yours.
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I'm not sure what entertaining has to do with a large electrical draw in the dining room.
 
Speshulk said:
Ok, but even if you plugged in a couple hot plates, I'm still not sure how the outdoor outlet being connected to the circuit would have any effect.
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I don't like what ifs to defend the code but do xmas lights, Halloween lights come to mind?

Fact is that it is a rule like it or not.
 
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