Dining Room Recep's

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Add To Kitchen Ckts Or Buy Afci Breaker.

Add To Kitchen Ckts Or Buy Afci Breaker.

First off everyone it is only 2 ways to look at this situation anymore. You can wire these dinning rm recepts 2 ways.

1. Place 1 half of the dinning rm recepts on the load side of the kitchen small appliance gfci circuit #1. Place 2nd half of dinning rm recepts on the load side of the kit small appl ckt #2.

OR

2. Place all dinning room recepts on it's own 20 amp ckt.


Now if you don't want to use method 1 and prefer to use method 2 then be prepared to buy another $40-$50 AFCI breaker for method 2 according to the 2008 NEC.

Wow. :roll: The things we realize in the end.
 
price kill.

price kill.

buckofdurham said:
I use to put them on their own circuit . Not any more, the price of material is killing me. Plus you need to utilize all the spaces in the panel.
I do however put them on the line side of the gfci.
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To comply with the 2008 NEC the price will still kill you because now you have to buy a afci breaker for this circuit so you can never avoid it unless you place them on the load side and not line side of the gfci.:D
 
mike johnson said:
To comply with the 2008 NEC the price will still kill you because now you have to buy a afci breaker for this circuit so you can never avoid it unless you place them on the load side and not line side of the gfci.:D
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...Unless your state did not adopt afci for all locations specified in the current code.

Ha! :smile:
 
mike johnson said:
To comply with the 2008 NEC the price will still kill you because now you have to buy a afci breaker for this circuit so you can never avoid it unless you place them on the load side and not line side of the gfci.:D
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Mike, I have bad news, the dinning room receptacles must be AFCI protected regardless of how you supply them.

Take a look at 2008 210.12(B).
 
This is Good article save a link to
http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_code_changes_13/

210.12 ? ARC-FAULT CIRCUIT-INTERRUPTER PROTECTION (AFCI)
AFCI-protection requirements for 15A and 20A, 120V dwelling unit circuits were expanded again.
(B) Dwelling Units. All 15A or 20A, 120V branch circuits that supply outlets in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways or similar areas shall be protected by a listed AFCI device of the combination type (click here to see Fig. 8).
Author's comment: The 120V circuit limitation means AFCI protection isn't required for equipment rated 230V, such as baseboard heaters or room air conditioners.
Supporters asserted that AFCIs have had an excellent track record in the field, and that both wiring errors and wiring damage have been found through the installation of AFCIs, reducing potential sources of electrical fires. Opponents asserted that combination AFCIs have no track record at all and that this change will result in high costs to consumers, estimated by at least one source to exceed $2.1 billion annually. Opponents do not believe there was sufficient documentation to support the expansion of AFCI requirements in the 2008 NEC. The 2008 NEC requirement does not require AFCI protection in rooms or areas where GFCI protection of receptacle outlets is required. Though not required by the Code, both AFCI and GFCI protection can be provided for the same branch circuits or receptacle outlets, as the different protection technologies are compatible.
In addition, a new Fine Print Note clarified dwelling unit AFCI-protection requirements of fire alarm circuits, and the rules on locating the AFCI device were rewritten to relax the restrictions.
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The 2008 NEC requirement does not require AFCI protection in rooms or areas where GFCI protection of receptacle outlets is required.
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Correct, it does not require AFCI protection where GFCI protection is required.

GFCI protection is not required in dinning rooms (in general) so you may not choose to use GFCIs in place of AFCIs.

If you chose to protect the entire home with GFCI circuits you are still required to provide AFCI protection in most of the rooms.
 
M.D. there is no where in the NEC that says if GFCI is used that an arc fault is not necessary. The highlighted section is basically correct but it is obviously a generalization. It is not true. 210.12 specifically states dining rooms.
 
I know what "required" means folks ,that part of Mike's commnet was highlighted for others to see and hopefully they also understand the difference between choice and no choice
 
M. D. said:
I know what "required" means folks ,that part of Mike's commnet was highlighted for others to see and hopefully they also understand the difference between choice and no choice
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Your post did not read to me that way, it seemed you where supporting Mike Johnson's position. :smile:
 
Should have been more clear,.. the big bold dining room in the code language, didn't get er dunn:roll:
 
mike johnson said:
First off everyone it is only 2 ways to look at this situation anymore. You can wire these dinning rm recepts 2 ways.
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I always ran the dining room receps with the refrigerator, as a third SABC circuit. I don't see that listed as one of your "two options". ;)
 
Good reason.

Good reason.

George Stolz said:
I always ran the dining room receps with the refrigerator, as a third SABC circuit. I don't see that listed as one of your "two options". ;)
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I did not make this 1 of my two options because it is not a wise recommendation for anyone to do this.

Reason being:
In any event where someone uses a vacuum, iron, or accessible equipment to plug into the accessible dinning area receptacle, breaker trips that individual goes to sleep or leave for vacation. Oops someone forgot to go all the way to the panel and reset the breaker now all of our food is spoiled.

How did the breaker trip? I used the outlets in the dinning to vacuum the hall while your brother was ironing his clothes at the same time my stereo was on.

What?s that got to do with my fridge in the kitchen? My food is spoiled.

:confused: Who wired this house??????????????????:confused:
 
iwire said:
Mike, I have bad news, the dinning room receptacles must be AFCI protected regardless of how you supply them.

Take a look at 2008 210.12(B).
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iwire i have good news.

A minimum of two small appliance branch circuits are required for receptacles serving kitchen countertops 210.52(B)(3). Either or both of these sabc may feed other receptacles in the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, or dinning area. The code will allow to place dinning receps on with the kit according to the 2008 nec. Then it also states afci protection is not required for areas of the kit recepts. The kit recepts are on with the dinning recepts gfci protected allowed by the nec.

You also replied to someone that if you chose to protect the entire home with GFCI circuits you are still required to provide AFCI protection in most of the rooms.

There is a big difference between choosing and what’s required by no choice.

You cannot branch off of the kitchen sabc to feed the receptacles in the family rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, etc where afci protection is required but you can in the dinning areas.

so that is why you may not choose to go this route and exempt afci protection for the rest of the house.

Since the dinning recepts are gfci protected from the kit load side it’s on with the kit code reference it will pass.
 
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Spec homes, for me, get the DR receps on with the fridge.

Custom homes, however, are a different breed. I've done some customs with two 'dedicated' 20a dining room circuits.
 
mike johnson said:
.

Since the dinning recepts are gfci protected from the kit load side it?s on with the kit code reference it will pass.
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Mike, find a code reference for your opinion.

My reference is that 210.12 requires the dinning room to be AFCI protected regardless of being GFCI protected or not.
 
mike johnson said:
Since the dinning recepts are gfci protected from the kit load side it?s on with the kit code reference it will pass.
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Mike, there are no exceptions to 210.12(B) that relieve the requirement for AFCI protection of the Dining room receptacles. GFCI or not.
 
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