Dining Room Receptacles

[iggy]

Do dwelling unit dining room receptacles have to be on 20 ampere branch circuits?

Please read carefully the second to last sentence of 210.52(B)(3), which reads: "Additional small appliance branch circuits shall be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the kitchen and other rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1)." I cannot find any place which states that small appliance branch circuits have to be 20 ampere. (I understand that there have to be at least two (2) 20 ampere branch circuits, and have those.) Note that 210.11(C)(1) refers to 210.52(B), which includes the sentence referenced above.

I take the sentence above to mean that I can have additional small appliance branch circuit(s) to serve the dining room, and, lacking anything to the contrary, they can be 15 ampere. No?

 

[nvcape]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

210-52 requires 20 amp small appliance branch circuits in the kitchen and dining. It says you will have a minimum of 2 circuits. You can add 15 amp switched circuits (lights) or more 20 amp circits.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

I agree with nvcape, which is to say that my answer to your last (one word) question is ?no.? 210.11(C)(1) tells me that any circuit intended for ?small appliances? has to be 20 amp. 210.52(B)(1) tells me that the receptacles along the wall in the dining room have to be on the ?two or more 20-ampere? circuits. This is because they are part of the ?receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A).? I think the reason is that people are more likely to plug a vacuum cleaner (i.e., a ?small appliance?) into a dining room receptacle than a floor lamp.

 

[Guest]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Dining room: Hotplates, coffee makers, etc. too

210.11(C) Dwelling Units.
(1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).

 

[tonyi]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Originally posted by iggy:

I take the sentence above to mean that I can have additional small appliance branch circuit(s) to serve the dining room, and, lacking anything to the contrary, they can be 15 ampere. No?

Just declare the additional ones to be general purpose branches rather than "small appliance". There is nothing in the code prohibiting general purpose recepticals in a kitchen (as long as they're GFCI protected).

The code mostly about what you MUST do, not what its possible to do above and beyond the bare minimums.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Tony,
I don't agree. I think that the wording in 210.52(B)(1) requires all of the receptacles in the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar areas must be fed by the 2 or more 20 amp small appliance branch circuits.
Don

 

[bill addiss]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Don,

You beat me to it here.

I agree (with you) and was going to point to the last part of that same section that states the small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all receptacle outlets required by 210.52(A) and (C) ...

Bill

[ October 15, 2003, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: bill addiss ]

 

[hbiss]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

...I think the reason is that people are more likely to plug a vacuum cleaner...into a dining room receptacle

I think that's a poor example. I really don't think a vacuum cleaner is a small appliance and it's also going to be used all over the house connected to any available receptacle.

I also wonder about the current day use of coffee makers etc. in the dining room. The 20A dining room circuit requirement goes back many, many years to a time when such use was in vogue. All such appliances today are required to have short 2 ft line cords and are intended for counter top use. To use them in a dining room would require an extension cord or a receptacle located other than the normal 16" above the floor.

 

[tonyi]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
Tony,
I don't agree. I think that the wording in 210.52(B)(1) requires all of the receptacles in the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar areas must be fed by the 2 or more 20 amp small appliance branch circuits.
Don

Read it closer Don

"..required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all receptical outlets covered by 210.52(A) and (C) [fridge stuff]..."

210.11(C)(1) is all about counter top type spaces . Where there's ordinary wall space, then this doesn't apply. That we can put a fridge on a 15A branch is further evidence 15A branches are allowed in kitchens.

I've got no problem with doing 20A on countertop spaces, that's where the high draw stuff generally lives.

 

[BAHTAH]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

210.52(b)(1) requires all receptacles in the dining room be supplied by a 20amp small applicance branch circuit, however 210.52(b)(1) Exception: "In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, shall be permited. 210.70(A)(1) Exception; " In other than kitchens and bathrooms, one or more receptacles controlled by a wall switch shall be permitted in lieu of lighting outlets." In my opinion the receptacles in the dining room must be on the 20amp small appliance circuit unless they are switched for lighting purposes from a general-use branch circuit. You cannot have only general-use receptacles in the dinning room, you need at leat one small appliance recept.

 

[iwire]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Tony, Don does not miss the details.

[ October 16, 2003, 04:48 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Tony,
It says that the two or more 20 amp circuits required by 210.11(C) shall serve all receptacles required by 210.52(A) and (C). This requirement is made clear by Exception #1 to 210.52(B)(1). You are correct that a 15 amp circuit is permitted for the refrigerator, but that is only per Exception #2.
Don

 

[bill addiss]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Tony,

Look at it this way:

.../the small-appliance branch circuits required /../shall serve all receptacle outlets required by 210.52(A)

210.52(A) is for General Purpose wall and floor receptacles.

Bill

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

I am again surprised by the interpretation of a code article that I thought was perfectly clear.

 

[frenchelectrican]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

ok guys i did dig back in my old code book my oldest code book and the new one it did not change the wording about dinning room curcuit and i did look at 220.16 . A also sec 210.52 . B and i read it it have same wordings what you guys talking about my old code book is 96 and i double check the 2002 and still the same word

so i know the code for kitchen and dinning room still the same for quite a while now

merci, marc

i can read it clear about it

 

[iggy]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Thank you all who replied. The consensus seems to be DR receptacles go on a 20 amp circuit....

But, electricmanscott hit the nail on the head - things that appear perfectly clear, are not always so.

Iggy

 

[tonyi]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Originally posted by bill addiss:
Tony,

Look at it this way:

.../the small-appliance branch circuits required /../shall serve all receptacle outlets required by 210.52(A)

210.52(A) is for General Purpose wall and floor receptacles.

Bill

Bill, if all this is true, then 15A bedroom branchs are also prohibited. Go back to the 210.52(A) general provisions and look - 210.52 is dealing with just about all possible 15/20A recepticals that can appear in a house somewhere.

210.52(B)(1) says "...shall serve all receptical outlets covered by 210.52(A) and (C) and receptical outlets for refrigeration equipment"

That the intro to 210.52 explicitly mentions 15A seals the deal.

Take a step back folks and put the words you're reading into the proper surrounding context.

 

[bill addiss]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Tony,

Bill, if all this is true, then 15A bedroom branchs are also prohibited. Go back to the 210.52(A) general provisions and look - 210.52 is dealing with just about all possible 15/20A recepticals that can appear in a house somewhere.

210.52(B)(1) starts off saying "In the Kitchen .. " etc. That's where you should start reading.

It basically goes on to say that two or more 20 amp small appliance brance circuits shall serve the outlets required by 210.52(A) (for walls and floors in the Kitchen etc.) and by 210.52(C) (to serve Countertops in Kitchen etc.)

That the intro to 210.52 explicitly mentions 15A seals the deal.

You're reading too much into this I think. We are referred to 210.52(A) which basically explains that we need to put receptacle outlets in the walls around the room meeting the spacing requirements set forth.

Bill

[ October 16, 2003, 03:03 AM: Message edited by: bill addiss ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Originally posted by tonyi:
Just declare the additional ones to be general purpose branches rather than "small appliance". There is nothing in the code prohibiting general purpose recepticals in a kitchen (as long as they're GFCI protected).

If I understand you correctly, your feeling is I could put a split duplex in the kitchen fed with 2 separate 20 amp GFCI protected circuits and now I am done with the requirements of 210.52(B)(1)?

The rest of the kitchen no matter how large, I could feed with 15 amp circuits?

I think when you look at it this way it is clear that is not what is intended.

IMO it is clear that the NEC wants 20 amp circuits feeding any outlets in kitchens and dinning rooms etc.

I have always believed this was for items like hot plates, small ovens, coffee makers, warming trays etc

Bill has already pointed this out but it is worth looking at, in the opening lines of 210.52(B)(1) they limit the 20 amp requirement to just the Kitchen, Pantry, etc.

In the closing lines it tells us all of those receptacles.

210.52(B)(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A) and (C) and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

Exception No. 1: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, shall be permitted.

Exception No. 2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.

Why would either of these exceptions to 210.52(B)(1) be needed if we could install 15 amp circuits in these spaces anyway.

Tony my post earlier "You are Kidding" I changed.

What I was trying to say is Don R, in the year that I have been reading his posts does not miss the small details of the NEC articles.

I may not always agree with his interpretation but he does read the articles carefully.

[ October 16, 2003, 05:47 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[tonyi]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Originally posted by iwire:

Why would either of these exceptions to 210.52(B)(1) be needed if we could install 15 amp circuits in these spaces anyway.

Exception #1 is necessary because the only things the small appliance branches can serve are the recepticals.

Exception #2 is necessary to avoid the fridge tripping GFCI's issues.

"...required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve...covered by 210.52(A) and (C)"

The required branches shall. Once you've done more than is required, that sentence becomes semantically inoperative.