Dining Room Receptacles

[iwire]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Tony I do not know what else we can show you, maybe ask a few inspectors in your area if they except 15 amp circuits for kitchens and dinning room outlets.

Originally posted by tonyi:
Exception #2 is necessary to avoid the fridge tripping GFCI's issues.

This exception has nothing to do with a refrigerator not needing a GFCI.

The requirement for kitchen GFCIs is "where the receptacles are installed to serve the counter top surfaces"

A floor standing refrigerator with an outlet behind it will not need a GFCI protected outlet.

The only purpose of Exception 2 is to allow a single 15 amp outlet (not a duplex) to serve a refrigerator

 

[roger]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Tony, when we have been used to doing something we believe is right, and it is pointed out that we have not been interpreting everything correctly, or we have been led to believe things are something they are not, it is natural to twist and turn whatever is in front of us to accomodate our reasoning. The bottom line is the others are right. I'm sorry.

Roger

 

[electricman2]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

This is just my opinion, but why anyone would install a 15A general use branch circuit anyway is beyond me. No. 12 is only a couple of cents more a foot and the breakers cost the same. Small price to pay for 1/3 again more capacity.

 

[tonyi]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Originally posted by roger:
Tony, when we have been used to doing something we believe is right, and it is pointed out that we have not been interpreting everything correctly, or we have been led to believe things are something they are not, it is natural to twist and turn whatever is in front of us to accomodate our reasoning. The bottom line is the others are right. I'm sorry.

Roger

I don't buy it. If the intent was for only 20A branches for any receptical in kitchens, it would have been much more direct to simply say that. "15A receptical branches in kitchens are prohibited" (exception: fridges). Done, two simple declaratives.

Q: can you have a 15A receptical branch in a bathroom? If not, why not?

 

[tonyi]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Originally posted by electricman2:
This is just my opinion, but why anyone would install a 15A general use branch circuit anyway is beyond me. No. 12 is only a couple of cents more a foot and the breakers cost the same. Small price to pay for 1/3 again more capacity.

We're really discussing how many angels dance on the head of a pin here But as a practical matter, it could be significant in a remodel where a different room becomes a kitchen and you'd like to keep some existing stuff in place and simply add the required small appliance brances.

 

[wayne123]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Correct me if I am wrong but,210.52(B)(3) states that 20 amp small appliance circuits shall be permitted to supply outlets in the kitchen and other rooms (dining room is "other room"). It doesn't state that it is required to be 20 amp in the dining room!

 

[bill addiss]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Wayne,

You're reading from a section titled Kitchen Receptacle Requirements I wouldn't expect that to state the rules for Dining Rooms.

Go back up to 210.52(B)(1) where it says "In the Kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room or similar area"...

Bill

 

[iggy]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Bill -

Wayne has seen my argument. I see that the paragraph title is "Kitchen Receptacle Outlets", but the paragraph DOES mention the "other rooms".

But, after all the posts above, and reading this 100 times, I think that 210.11(C)(1) probably trumps 210.52(B)(3).

It seems to me a fix would be to define small appliance branch circuits as 20 amp. I think that was the spirit of 210.11(C)(1), but it didn't quite get there.

 

[wayne123]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

The AHJ in my area doesn't require dining room recpt. to be on a 20 amp ckt. He reads this like a lot of us do ,that it can be but it doesn't have to be because it is not designated as a small appliance ckt.He considers these recept to be part of the general lighting load. I thinkk this is a grey area that the NEC shoud clearly define. I see no problem with making these 20 amp ckt. and I usually do but to the contractor who tries to cut corners I feel that he may have a good arguement if he gets red tagged on it.

 

[tonyi]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Originally posted by iwire:

Originally posted by tonyi:
Just declare the additional ones to be general purpose branches rather than "small appliance". There is nothing in the code prohibiting general purpose recepticals in a kitchen (as long as they're GFCI protected).

If I understand you correctly, your feeling is I could put a split duplex in the kitchen fed with 2 separate 20 amp GFCI protected circuits and now I am done with the requirements of 210.52(B)(1)?

The rest of the kitchen no matter how large, I could feed with 15 amp circuits?

NO, NO, NO - the requirement for 20A small appliance branches on countertop type spaces is very clear. Counter top (islands, etc) dimensions dictate the minimum number of recepticals (on 20A branch) for those type spaces.

 

[david]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

I?ll jump in late all 15-amp duplex and 20-amp rec. in he kitchen have to be supplied from a twenty-amp circuit. It wasn?t that long ago that a rec serving a refrigerator had to be on a twenty amp circuit. It became an industry practice of placing the refrigerator on 20 amp-dedicated circuits. Though Tec. The circuit was not a dedicated circuit because of the wide practice of providing a duplex rec for the disconnect, the place- ment of the refrigerator in front of the rec made it inaccessible for use and in effect made this a dedicated circuit. The code change allowing the 15-amp circuit but not requiring it was more in line with,
422.62 Appliances Consisting of Motors and Other Loads.
(B) Additional Nameplate Markings.
(1) Marking. In addition to the marking required in 422.60, the marking on an appliance consisting of a motor with other load(s) or motors with or without other load(s) shall specify the minimum supply circuit conductor ampacity and the maximum rating of the circuit overcurrent protective device. This requirement shall not apply to an appliance with a nameplate in compliance with 422.60 where both the minimum supply circuit conductor ampacity and maximum rating of the circuit overcurrent protective device are not more than 15 amperes.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Tony,

Q: can you have a 15A receptical branch in a bathroom? If not, why not?

In my opinion 210.11(C)(3) prohibits the use of 15 amp circuits for bathroom receptacle outlets.
Don

 

[tonyi]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
Tony,

Q: can you have a 15A receptical branch in a bathroom? If not, why not?

In my opinion 210.11(C)(3) prohibits the use of 15 amp circuits for bathroom receptacle outlets.
Don

Again, I don't buy it. If there's at least one 20A already in there meeting the minimum requirement and placed accordingly, I don't see how 210.11(C)(3) prohibits any additional 15A above and beyond the minimums.

How does "at least one 20A" translate into a prohibition against exceeding code minimums with additional 15A? If 15A were prohibited, why not just say so in an explicit manner?

In a small bath, its mostly a non issue of course, but in a large one with lots of ordinary wall space beyond the sink/tub/shower areas where one would plug in radio/TV on a stand, etc that area is really no different usage wise than a living room or bedroom.

Unless something is explicitly prohibited, the code (as a general statement) has little to say about exceeding minimum requirements.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Tony,
I think that the code is clearer in the case of the bathroom receptacles than it is for the dining room.

(3) Bathroom Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the bathroom receptacle outlet(s).

How does this section leave room to supply other bthroom receptacle outlets from a 15 amp branch circuit?
Don

 

[tonyi]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
Tony,
I think that the code is clearer in the case of the bathroom receptacles than it is for the dining room.

(3) Bathroom Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the bathroom receptacle outlet(s).

How does this section leave room to supply other bthroom receptacle outlets from a 15 amp branch circuit?
Don

I don't think its as clear as you think - step up a level and read the general heading for 210.11 it plainly says "Branch Circuits Required". My contention is that once all minimum required branches in this section have been put in, any extras above and beyond are no longer constrained by this section because they are quite simply NOT "required branch circuits" anymore. [there may be other conditions on the extras, like GFCI or AFCI, depending on their locations of course, but no constraints on their capacity or number]

The wording isn't saying what you're LIMITED to in an implementation, its saying what you MUST do as bare minimums in an implementation.

 

[david]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Hey, I like your reasoning. After I wire my home with all the required branch circuits, I no longer need the code Heck these sections no longer apply. Forget the reason they ask the bathroom circuits to be 20 amp was to handle the increased demand in these area?s. Hey we could make a code change requiring all the rec. on the required branch circuits brown in color. So if a person is given a choice as to what rec. circuit in the bath room is 20amp and what rec is 15 amp they will no which one to plug the hair dryer into.

 

[bill addiss]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

The AHJ in my area doesn't require dining room recpt. to be on a 20 amp ckt. He reads this like a lot of us do ,that it can be but it doesn't have to be because it is not designated as a small appliance ckt.He considers these recept to be part of the general lighting load. I thinkk this is a grey area that the NEC shoud clearly define. I see no problem with making these 20 amp ckt. and I usually do but to the contractor who tries to cut corners I feel that he may have a good arguement if he gets red tagged on it.

Wayne,

I don't think this is what is really being discussed here, and IMO I think your AHJ is wrong. My understanding is that Tony's argument is about extra receptacles and circuits installed in these rooms after all of the required 20A ones have been put in.

Bill

[ October 18, 2003, 01:34 AM: Message edited by: bill addiss ]

 

[david]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

In the nutshell there are no extra circuits in these areas. If we follow this reasoning. After we install a 20 amp circuit in the bath room and provide a GFCI protected outlet we could install rec. on 10 amp circuits as long as the conductors where 14 awg or larger.

The code says rec. outlet singular and rec. outlets plural. All rec. outlets in the bathroom are required to be supplied from a 20-amp circuit. There is no min requirement for outlets plural in a bathroom. There is only a min requirement for outlet singular.

The fact that the code section says outlets plural makes this argument mute. All rec. outlets in the bathroom have to be supplied from a 20-amp circuit

 

[tonyi]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Originally posted by david:
So if a person is given a choice as to what rec. circuit in the bath room is 20amp and what rec is 15 amp they will no which one to plug the hair dryer into.

I presume they'd plug the hair dryer into the one by the mirror near the sink, which is the 20A one. Does it really matter though? Who makes a 20A hair dryer with a "T" plug? For that matter, how many people put a 20A receptical in on that 20A branch anyway? (I do so you know its a 20A branch, but most don't and go with the cheaper 15A recepticals). The ubiquitous 15A receptical physically limits loads that can be plugged in.

Unless the person is a 2' tall munchkin and finds a wall receptical near the floor more convenient, I don't think distinguishing them is all that hard

 

[tonyi]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Originally posted by david:
In the nutshell there are no extra circuits in these areas.

Where does it say this? If true, why would the 210.11 title use the word "Required" and not language like "nothing other than these permitted".