Dining Room Receptacles

[Guest]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Originally posted by hurk27:
Awwt:

we have overloaded a 15-amp circuit if we put a 1500 watt hair dryer on it

How are you going to run a hairdryer more than 3 hours?

Continuous Load. A load where the maximum current is expected to continue for 3 hours or more.

210.20 Overcurrent Protection.
(A) Continuous and Noncontinuous Loads. Where a branch circuit supplies continuous loads or any combination of continuous and noncontinuous loads, the rating of the overcurrent device shall not be less than the noncontinuous load plus 125 percent of the continuous load.

How does 210.21(B)(2) and Table 210.21(B)(2) factor into the comment above? That table may be the source of my confusion and the source of my current MO. It can limit the cord-and-plug connected load to 12 (1440-watts) amps on a 15-amp receptacle (even if on a 20-amp circuit). I'm not saying it makes me right, I'm only pointing it out as a possible source of the confusion.

 

[tonyi]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Originally posted by david:
The section that you are disputing mandates this arrangement. And you are telling 10,000 individuals that the NEC does not mandate this. You are wrong.
I cannot determine for the life of me why you can?t get it right.

I agree that it mandates it for REQUIRED recepticals that are REQUIRED by the load calcs referenced in the 210.11 intro paragraph.

Where I disagree is that 210.11 and subordinates somehow magically apply to everything when the language of the 210.11 intro very plainly states that it applies to the minimum branches dictated by load calcs. It does NOT say "and extras in those areas".

People are reading in some sort of "and everything else" type language that simply does not exist on those pages. Its not there.

I'm approaching this language like a computer programmer (which I did for 20 years in a previous life) following some programs convoluted logic to understand how it operates. It looks like this:

if (210.11 mandated branch per load calcs)
{
// apply mandatory rules of 210.11
// and its subordinates
}
else
{
// Not a required branch 210.11
// requirements do not apply (but
// other may depending on area)
}

This IS the way the english text parses out logically.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Tony,
The requirement is in 210.52, not 210.11. 210.52(B)(1) says that all receptacle outlets in the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit coverd by the rules in 210.52(A) and 210.52(C) must be supplied by the two or more 20 amp small appliance branch circuits. Are you telling us that if you put the countertop receptacles on 2' centers in place of the required 4' centers that the extra receptacles are not required to be on the small appliance branch circuits? And are you telling us that if the dinning room receptacles are closer together than 12' on center that the intermediate receptacles can be on a 15 amp general purpose circuit, but the ones 12' on center must be on the two or more small appliance circuits?
Don

 

[sjaniga]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

To all posters, what we have here is a FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE, well at least one of us.

Tony, computers do not make mistakes, computer programmers DO!

if (210.11 mandated branch per load calcs)
{
// apply mandatory rules of 210.11
// and its subordinates
}
else
{
// Not a required branch 210.11
// requirements do not apply (but
// other may depending on area)
}

This IS the way the english text parses out logically.

Nowhere in your jargan do you have the word all. All receptacles Tony, All.

Scott.

 

[mike@mikeholt.com]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Guys, let me try to clear this up.
No. 1. Recptacles are required in the dinning room of a dwelling unit in accordance with 210.52(A).
No. 2. These receptacles shall be supplied by one of the two required small appliance circuits [210.52(B)(1) and 210.11(C)(1).
No. 3. Section 210.52(B)(3), recognizes that additional small appliance circuits (above the 2 required) shall be permitted to supply receptacles in kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit.

But the NEC does not specify that receptacles above those required by 210.52(A), are required to be on the small appliance circuit.

So once you have meet the NEC for the required receptacles, you can add additional receptacles and this can be on a 15A circuit.

 

[tonyi]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
Tony,
The requirement is in 210.52, not 210.11. 210.52(B)(1) says that all receptacle outlets in the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit coverd by the rules in 210.52(A) and 210.52(C) must be supplied by the two or more 20 amp small appliance branch circuits.

Now back up a level and see what 210.52 is under - In my book, its called "III Required Outlets".

I want someone to clearly explain to me why something that is NOT a required outlet should be bound by the provisions of this section. You can't just zero in on some phrase somewhere at a low level and then arbitrarily apply it to the world. Everything in the code needs to be considered within its surrounding context.



Are you telling us that if you put the countertop receptacles on 2' centers in place of the required 4' centers that the extra receptacles are not required to be on the small appliance branch circuits?

Are they there to serve small appliances? Do they meet the positioning requirements of small appliance recepticals? Suppose one needed a receptical up near the ceiling to power the transformer for their model train layout that runs along the tops of the cabinets? I think its quite presumptious to believe that people's actual usage patterns will fit what the code minimums provide for.


And are you telling us that if the dinning room receptacles are closer together than 12' on center that the intermediate receptacles can be on a 15 amp general purpose circuit, but the ones 12' on center must be on the two or more small appliance circuits?
Don [/QUOTE]

Again, what are these extras going to be used for? I also think the code's dining room language is rather archaic in today's world where kitchens have largely taken over that task and the dining room per say is really just another ordinary living room.

 

[tonyi]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Originally posted by sjaniga:
logically.

Nowhere in your jargan do you have the word all. All receptacles Tony, All.

Scott. [/QUOTE]

Now back up a level and read the section encompasing where you find the word "all". "All", does NOT necessarily mean "all" when its been previously scoped by a section above it. All lower level items need to be read within a particular context.

Take a look at 210.52(C)(5) [last sentence before the exceptions] for a flavor of what I'm trying to get at. You CAN have recepticals that do NOT meet the positioning requirements for small appliance branch recepticals - you just can't count them towards your required minimums. This sentence captures what I'm trying to get across fairly well.

 

[roger]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Tony, with that argument I would like to revisit this post.

posted October 19, 2003 04:07 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK Tony, so what you're saying is anything we install beyond the minimum doesn't have to perform to minimum standards. Interesting philosophy.

This would mean any additional exit lights we may install wouldn't really have be exits.

Roger
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Guest]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Originally posted by mike@mikeholt.com:
<snip> So once you have meet the NEC for the required receptacles, you can add additional receptacles and this can be on a 15A circuit.

OK, folks, we've taken this from the top down now. How about taking it from the bottom up?

If I have an existing dining room with 15-amp receptacles and I remodel the dining room I am required to install two 20-amp small appliance cicuits. I install enough to meet the code minimums. I'm not touching my kitchen in this remodel.

Question: Do I have to remove the existing 15-amp receptacles when I add the new required 20-amp ones? I have chosen not to based on Mike's answer above. I will leave the 15-amp ones in place. What's the right answer in my situation?

I will appreciate all constructive answers.

 

[a.wayne3@verizon.net]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

After reading throught these threads,What comes first the chicken or the egg..... A dinning/nook receptacle has to be on a 20 amp circuit nowhere does it say it may be on a 15 amp circuit.We can pick the nec apart,but in the end the ahj has the final say.Show me one inspector that would pass a rough in which one of these receptacles in a dinning / nook area is on a 15 amp circuit!!!where I am if a knee wall faces a family room then that receptacle has to be on a 15 amp circuit
counter top receptacles have to be 20 amp circuit
either part of the 2 appliance circuit or a dedicated dinning/nook receptacle circuit then can be part of an appliance circuit.i guees im from missouri show me !!!!!!!!

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Tony,

Are they there to serve small appliances? Do they meet the positioning requirements of small appliance receptacles?

Yes, they meet the above but they are in addition to the code required minimum, and therefore according to you they are not required to be on the two or more small appliance branch circuits.
[quotet]Suppose one needed a receptacle up near the ceiling to power the transformer for their model train layout that runs along the tops of the cabinets? [/quote]
210.52(C)(5) says that this is not a required outlet for the counter top and therefore is not required by 210.11(C)(1) to be on the small appliance branch circuits.

Again, what are these extras going to be used for?

Who knows what they will be used for? How could an inspector know what is what when some are on a 15 amp circuit and the others are on the small appliance branch circuit?

I also think the code's dining room language is rather archaic in today's world where kitchens have largely taken over that task and the dining room per say is really just another ordinary living room.

Just because you think that a code section is outdated, doesn't make it unenforceable. If there is a problem with the section, you need to submit a proposal.
Don

 

[david]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

?But the NEC does not specify that receptacles above those required by 210.52(A), are required to be on the small appliance circuit.

So once you have meet the NEC for the required receptacles, you can add additional receptacles and this can be on a 15A circuit.?


I have several contractors that install rec. every six feet in every room in a dwelling. This could be interrupted to mean they only have to supply half of the wall rec. in these specified areas on a 20 amp small appliance circuit. Or am I reading what was said here wrong? Please clarify.

 

[pierre]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

I have read only this one page of the thread, but from this I am going to add what I read from the NEC 2002.

BTW - Mike it is nice to hear from you !!!

1. Mike I respectfully disagree with the statement made about adding 15 amp rated circuits to the diningroom for receptacle outlets.
Except for the switched receptacle and the refridgeration, 210.52(B)(1) states that the "the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1)SHALL SERVE ALL RECEPTACLE OUTLETS covered by 210.52(A)&(C)and receptacle outlets for refridgeration equipment."

As small as the words AND & OR are, they are extremely important in the NEC and should not be read over lightly.

The two OR more means that, depending on design and load, if there are more than the required 2 minimum 20 ampere rated circuits, the additional circuits are also considered small appliance branch circuits, and are required to be 20 ampere rated.

As far as the countertop issue, 210.52(B)(3)
"Receptacles installed in a kitchen to SERVE COUNTERTOP SURFACES SHALL BE SUPPLIED BY NOT FEWER THAN TWO SMALL-APPLIANCE GRANCH CIRCUITS,"

As long as the receptacle added to SERVE THE COUNTERTOP SURFACE, they are required to be of the small appliance branch circuit(s).
This does not mention the receptacles being served, but the countertop being served.

*(the uppercase lettering is my way of emphasising the meaning)


Pierre

[ October 21, 2003, 01:49 AM: Message edited by: pierre ]

 

[tonyi]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Originally posted by awwt:

Question: Do I have to remove the existing 15-amp receptacles when I add the new required 20-amp ones? I have chosen not to based on Mike's answer above. I will leave the 15-amp ones in place. What's the right answer in my situation?

I will appreciate all constructive answers.

My take is the existing 15A is fine from a code POV. However - the new 20A's are required to be spaced accordingly and any existing 15A would need to be essentially ignored while figuring those placements. As a purely practical matter, it might make sense to blank off some of the 15's depending on where they're located and what other stuff is on those 15A branch(s). If its already a heavily loaded 15A branch, it may make sense to blank most/all of them off, or split'em off the existing 15A branch onto several 15A branches if you want to keep the existing wire in the walls to minimize the wreckage.

When you exceed the code, its nicer to do so in a way that actually enhances rather than confuses. ex. My mom has a small B&W TV she likes to keep on top of the fridge in the kitchen and doesn't mind blocking off the seldom used cabinets behind it. The cord comes down and winds up being drapped across the counter to one of the 20A small appliance recepticals. I'm not entirely happy with this TV's cord hanging like clothsline across the counter. The outside 15A GFCI recepticals branch (currently dedicated to only outside recepticals) passes nearby and a j-box is close up in the attic too. Dropping in a duplex along the wall near the top of the fridge to run the TV will be pretty trivial, and the outside recepticals branch load is almost always near zero, so this new receptical offers genuine enhancement rather than an enticement to plug something in that might trip that 15A branch on a regular basis.

 

[sjaniga]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Ok, this will be my last reply here for this thread. I will try to break down the reasoning for doing it the way I do.

210.50 Required outlets
This tells me that I must read 210.52 thru 210.63
(210.60, 210.62, and 210.63 does not need to be covered for this thread).

210.52 Dwelling unit receptacle outlets
This section is covering the requirements for 125 volt, 15- and 20-amp receptacles for the kitchen, family room, dining room, living room, parlor, library, den, sunroom, bedroom, recreation room, or similar room.

210.52(A)1 thru 3
This tells me the spacing requirements, what is considered a wall space, and floor receptacles.

210.52(B) Small appliances
210.52(B)1 Receptacle outlets served
This tells me for the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar areas to refer back to 210.11(C)1
(tells me that the two or more 20-amp small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B) which means the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area)
and this requirement shall serve all receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A) and (C).
(which comes back to spacing, what is considered wall space, floor receptacles, and countertop spaces).

My interpretation is that if you are wiring the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area you must use 20-amp circuits for the non-switched receptacles, no matter what the spacing is. You are not just adding receptacles, you are adding circuits and this section talks about what size circuits are required for the above rooms.

210.52(B)3
States that additional small-appliance branch circuits shall be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the kitchen and other rooms specified in 210.52(B)1

For those of you that use 15-amp circuits once the two 20-amp circuit minimum is met, I am sorry we couldnt see eye to eye.

Good bye, and good night,
Scott

 

[gwz2]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Sure is a lot of reading here.

May have miss this in previous post's.

How is the occupant, inspector, and others to know which outlets is on a 20 Amp applicance circuit, or a general purpose circuit?

The NEC does not require that 20A receptacles be used on 20A appliance circuits.

gwz2

 

[david]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Scott:
I couldn?t agree with you more.

I called three other inspectors that I know and right down the line they all agreed for the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar areas the rec. that serve the counter space and that means no more than 20? above the counter, and the wall rec. within 5 ? ft of the floor where there are no counters served will be 20 amp small appliance circuits.

Anyone thinking of installing 15 amp circuits in these areas because of this thread better check with your authority first.

 

[tonyi]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Originally posted by sjaniga:
You are not just adding receptacles, you are adding circuits and this section talks about what size circuits are required for the above rooms.

Let me try again to get across where me (and now Mike) are coming from on this.

In the most generic terms it comes down to this: requirements can exist only within the context in which they are made. You shouldn't grab some low level paragraph in isolation and try to apply it universally without looking up a few levels to see where it applies.

This is why the word "all" doesn't necessarily mean "all" in the universal way you think it might at a casual glance. It means "all" in the sense of everything that was REQUIRED to be present, not everything that might optionally be present.

In this case, the 20A requirements (and placements) are made within the context of branches required to be present as dictated by the load calcs. Once all load calc mandated branches and recepticals have been satisfied, the whole of 210 III is effectively out of the picture.

210.11 (which ultimately ripples down to the SmApp branch requirements) is very clear about it applying only to computed and specific loads.

 

[tonyi]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

Originally posted by gwz2:
How is the occupant, inspector, and others to know which outlets is on a 20 Amp applicance circuit, or a general purpose circuit?

The NEC does not require that 20A receptacles be used on 20A appliance circuits.

gwz2

Designing a usable or understandable implementation isn't really a code issue. Homeowner complaints (or lack thereof) about constantly tripping breakers will tell you if what you did worked out or not

IMO, someone doing this needs to apply some common sense and not put 15A branches where someone might be tempted to put big small appliance loads on them. They should be considered (IMO) as a supplement to, rather than a bandaid for insufficient 20A branches. ex. suppose there's a small isolated sliver countertop only 9" wide on one side of a stove or sink. That sliver won't require a 20A branch to serve it. As a practical matter, that space is too small for most heavy draw kitchen appliances anyway - so maybe you put a 15A recepticle there so someone can plug in a clock/radio/lava lamp whatever. If you ponder a bit, that 15A branch can probably supply the outside recepticals for the place, which are usually lightly loaded anyway. Chances of an overload trip? Pretty slim.

 

[russellroberts]

Re: Dining Room Receptacles

From a practical standpoint,why,if you've already pulled a 20a ckt to the dr,would you want to pull a 15a ckt. to the same place?

If you're that concerned about breakers tripping,just use #12 as a minimum wire size,keep it simple and not have 15a here and 20a there.

Even if you could convince the ahj of the validity of the argument(which I doubt)you could have pulled an extra 20a ckt to prop up whats already there if need be.

From the same practical standpoint,while you're debating the point with the AHJ,and going through the various appeals process,I could have a sign-off and the job proceeds.

I can make a 5-horse Briggs and Stratton pull a freight train if I use enough gears.But why would I want to?

Russell