Dirty power filtering

[G._S._Ohm]

Oldest woman in the USA died yesterday at 116.

I think what cuts it down,

Genetics
Stress
habits/life style choices-smoking, drinking, eating, drug abuse
hobbies, mountain climbing, motor cycle riding, fast cars, WOMEN and such

Though there are those that make bad life style choices and live into their 90's

She has outlived 99.999% of the women born on the same day as she.

The mortality calculators on the Web will show you what's important. The more questions it asks the more accurate it should be.

I have about 15 years, with a small chance of
living 24 more years or
dying much sooner than 15 years.

The rock and rollers who miss 'the 27 club' and live into way old age are officially called outliers.

 

[Jraef]

Most people are jumping into opposition because they do not understand them; they don't see why they are necessary and they fear things they don't understand. The problem is, the utilities have not made a CLEAR representation as to why "we" need to have these things, other than to keep meter readers off of our lawns. But there is a benefit for "them" to be able to get more money from us by parsing the billing information to the point of being completely incomprehensible, just like our cell phone bills are now. The reality is, there is no CONSUMER benefit to having "smart" meters, the only people who stand to benefit are the utilities. So if there is no benefit, AND there is a perceived risk, regardless of facts not in evidence, it only stands to reason that people will be opposed. Comparing it to cell phones is spurious, we get BENEFITS from cell phones that we are no longer willing to sacrifice for the risk, perceived or not.

That said, the "dirty power" issue with smart meters is a red herring. The GE meters, as is true of most smart meters, are inherently capable of a lot of different communications topographies; PLC (Power Line Carrier), RF Mesh (spread spectrum radio), 3G/4G cellular, Zigbee, etc. etc. What we don't know, and most likely the OP doesn't know, is which of these modes the Power Utility is using at his friend's house. If it is anything other than PLC, then it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with "cleaning up the dirty power". And if they are using PLC, then what he can get to "clean" the power is not going to have any effect on the PLC comm system anyway. So it's a completely useless discussion really.

 

[brian john]

Most people are jumping into opposition because they do not understand them; they don't see why they are necessary and they fear things they don't understand. The problem is, the utilities have not made a CLEAR representation as to why "we" need to have these things, other than to keep meter readers off of our lawns. But there is a benefit for "them" to be able to get more money from us by parsing the billing information to the point of being completely incomprehensible, just like our cell phone bills are now. The reality is, there is no CONSUMER benefit to having "smart" meters, the only people who stand to benefit are the utilities. So if there is no benefit, AND there is a perceived risk, regardless of facts not in evidence, it only stands to reason that people will be opposed. Comparing it to cell phones is spurious, we get BENEFITS from cell phones that we are no longer willing to sacrifice for the risk, perceived or not.

And that is why I just love any changes they make (banks, utilities, local and federal government, stores as they replace cashiers........) IN ORDER TO SERVE YOU BETTER. Yeah OK

 

[robbietan]

121204-1959 EST

kdrifter440:

You need to find some technical details on the GE meter. This might come from GE and/or the local power company. You need to educate yourself on this subject.

Is there any particular time of day this person feels the effects of the meter? Is there any particular location in the house or outside where the effects are noticed? How far away from the house is it necessary to go to reduce the effect? Where can the person go to get relief? How quickly does the effect go away by going into the country to the middle of big open field where it is not possible to see any radio towers, electrical towers, or anything much made by man?

It is likely someone has told this person that the new electronic digital meters can cause bad health effects. If bad effects have resulted it is probably all in the person's head (psychological).

Take this person to somewhere that they are free of the effects. Then bring one of the meters of concern into their presence, connected to nothing. Does that instigate the effect?

Now in this wide open field run a single wire from the meter to one terminal of the battery in a car that is not running. Does this trigger the event?

Give us some feedback.

.

tried putting a gauss meter near an analog meter. readings in milligauss. the readings drop dramatically (less than 10 milli gauss) if you place the meter 6 inches away



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

[kwired]

tried putting a gauss meter near an analog meter. readings in milligauss. the readings drop dramatically (less than 10 milli gauss) if you place the meter 6 inches away



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

That is likely what most would expect, how about placing it near a "smart meter" so we have a comparison, as well as different distances away to see how it may actually effect the occupants of the home.

Also keep in mind that the meter may only transmit data at predetermined times and is only causing "objectionable EMF" for limited periods when it does so.

 

[ghostbuster]

Here is an interesting video(starts at approx. 2 min. mark) that may further this discussion.

We suspect the problem is from a neutral wiring problem in the apartment below.The ceiling light in the apartment directly below this problem area was turned off,but the problem still remained.

Enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEFRc-KNJX4&feature=player_embedded

 

[gar]

121207-1001 EST

To use a Gauss meter probe near an electric meter provides no useful information on the subject. It does not measure the RF radiation.

This morning, at an instant of time, if I place my Gauss probe adjacent to one hot input wire the reading is 1.5 Gauss. The other hot line about 0.5 Gauss. Effectively I am measuring current. These readings are a function of my load current. As will be the readings near the electric meter.

Near my smart meter, meaning in contact with the plastic cover, the reading is in the range of 0.2 Gauss. I got higher readings adjacent to the 2" rigid conduit from the meter to the main panel.

These measurements are 60 Hz magnetic field, not high frequency RF radiation.

Next to the 1/2" thinwall to my furnace motor the reading is about 0.02 Gauss. This is a 450 W load.

Walking around my house the reading is in the noise level of my meter about 0.5 milli-gauss (0.000,5 Gauss). I do not have a 60 Hz filter on the probe so harmonics up to a few kHz will produce readings f/60 greater for a particular magnetic field.

The next experiment shows the effect of frequency. The probe adjacent to an 8' Slimline magnet ballast fluorescent tube reads about 0.05 Gauss. But adjacent to a T8 electronic ballasted tube the reading is 2 Gauss because of the f/60 effect on the reading (needs an unknown divisor because of the much higher frequency and e = N dPhi/dt effect). Two feet away from the T8 and the reading is in the meter noise level.

Changing the power meter has nothing to do with the house internal wiring. Thus, there would be no change internally on house magnetic fields like the effect of a separated neutral.

.​

 

[robbietan]

121207-1001 EST

To use a Gauss meter probe near an electric meter provides no useful information on the subject. It does not measure the RF radiation.

This morning, at an instant of time, if I place my Gauss probe adjacent to one hot input wire the reading is 1.5 Gauss. The other hot line about 0.5 Gauss. Effectively I am measuring current. These readings are a function of my load current. As will be the readings near the electric meter.

Near my smart meter, meaning in contact with the plastic cover, the reading is in the range of 0.2 Gauss. I got higher readings adjacent to the 2" rigid conduit from the meter to the main panel.

These measurements are 60 Hz magnetic field, not high frequency RF radiation.

Next to the 1/2" thinwall to my furnace motor the reading is about 0.02 Gauss. This is a 450 W load.

Walking around my house the reading is in the noise level of my meter about 0.5 milli-gauss (0.000,5 Gauss). I do not have a 60 Hz filter on the probe so harmonics up to a few kHz will produce readings f/60 greater for a particular magnetic field.

The next experiment shows the effect of frequency. The probe adjacent to an 8' Slimline magnet ballast fluorescent tube reads about 0.05 Gauss. But adjacent to a T8 electronic ballasted tube the reading is 2 Gauss because of the f/60 effect on the reading (needs an unknown divisor because of the much higher frequency and e = N dPhi/dt effect). Two feet away from the T8 and the reading is in the meter noise level.

Changing the power meter has nothing to do with the house internal wiring. Thus, there would be no change internally on house magnetic fields like the effect of a separated neutral.

.​

power line "radiation" is a big deal here. health issues about constructing a 230kV line near a posh village went up to the supreme court. the power company lost due to 10 milligauss measured inside a house near a 115 kV line

 

[gar]

121213-1028 EST

robbietan:

This is a useful reference
http://sp.ehs.cornell.edu/lab-resea...gnetic_Field_Safety_Program_Cryo_Guide_v4.pdf

On page 5 a limit of 5 milligauss for 60 Hz is mentioned.

If there really was 10 milligauss inside the house, then probably a good reason for the power company loss.

This morning I added filtering to my Gauss probe. Not much change in the readings from before. General noise level in the house is 0.5 milligauss (10 microvolts on the meter, 1/2000 of a Gauss) (the meter's quantizing and noise level), same within 4 ft of main electrical panel. At one input hot wire at the main panel top (meaning tight against the insulation on the wire) the reading was 2 Gauss today at the measurement moment.

Outdoors directly under my primary lines I am at this same 0.5 milligauss noise level. This was at whatever various orientations of the probe I picked.

I have a 3 phase primary with no neutral in my neighborhood. Any existing neutral is the earth and pipes in the earth. I assume a Y source at the substation to provide an earthing connection. I doubt there are any Y loads on my primary in my neighborhood.

Some time ago, more than a year, I put a big one turn wire loop, 10 ft x 30 ft, horizontally disposed, in my front yard below the primary lines and measured the induced voltage. This was in the low millivolt range, and fluctuated. Were the three primary wires in immediate contact with each other the ratio of their spacing to the 25' from wires to ground would have essentially caused there magnetic fields to cancel one another at the ground.

The court case you mention seems to imply a Y distribution system with a fairly large neutral current and a substantial portion of that neutral current in the earth path. Thus, a big source, big window in a one turn coil, from which the magnetic field was generated. Now distance from this one turn coil to the house interior is on the same order of magnitude as the window of the one turn coil.

I need to find a big high voltage primary, probably 345 kV, in the country and see what my Gauss probe reads. I generally know one place where DTE ties to Consumers Power, an isolated location. I know that there are ground currents at this point that don't flow in the direction of the power lines.


What I need, and some day I might cook up one, is a transmitted signal to give me zero crossing timing (phase information) from our power company so that I could determine what part of the ground current was correlated with the eastern interconnect (that is generally Canada (Ontario), NY, PA, OH, and MI).

.

 

[ghostbuster]

I have a site near main multiple overhead circuit 230 kv. lines:

Approx. 100 ft away over 200 milligauss


Using a 6 ft. dia. circle of wire ,over 5 amps of induced current flow in this loop.

 

[fmtjfw]

Most people are jumping into opposition because they do not understand them; they don't see why they are necessary and they fear things they don't understand. The problem is, the utilities have not made a CLEAR representation as to why "we" need to have these things, other than to keep meter readers off of our lawns. But there is a benefit for "them" to be able to get more money from us by parsing the billing information to the point of being completely incomprehensible, just like our cell phone bills are now. The reality is, there is no CONSUMER benefit to having "smart" meters, the only people who stand to benefit are the utilities. So if there is no benefit, AND there is a perceived risk, regardless of facts not in evidence, it only stands to reason that people will be opposed. Comparing it to cell phones is spurious, we get BENEFITS from cell phones that we are no longer willing to sacrifice for the risk, perceived or not.

That said, the "dirty power" issue with smart meters is a red herring. The GE meters, as is true of most smart meters, are inherently capable of a lot of different communications topographies; PLC (Power Line Carrier), RF Mesh (spread spectrum radio), 3G/4G cellular, Zigbee, etc. etc. What we don't know, and most likely the OP doesn't know, is which of these modes the Power Utility is using at his friend's house. If it is anything other than PLC, then it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with "cleaning up the dirty power". And if they are using PLC, then what he can get to "clean" the power is not going to have any effect on the PLC comm system anyway. So it's a completely useless discussion really.

I benefited by the installation of a smart meter. I got a split rate on/off peak. The PV that the POCO paid half on were mostly on peak. The heat storage system that normally ran off peak that the POCO paid half on saved me money. The interruptible contract on the heat storage saved me more money. The bill wasn't hard to read, the lower number at the bottom was fun to read.

 

[fmtjfw]

Ask your client to perform an experiment. Wrap the exterior of the meter with saran wrap, but don't let her see the box. Have her check her health for a week. If she is feeling better, charge her $25 for materials and walk away satisfied. Remember the Placebo effect exists.

 

[G._S._Ohm]

a posh village
10 milligauss measured inside a house

Does this mean there is an agreed-upon danger level or that these people were just politically connected?

 

[kbsparky]

Ask your client to perform an experiment. Wrap the exterior of the meter with saran wrap, but don't let her see the box. Have her check her health for a week. If she is feeling better, charge her $25 for materials and walk away satisfied. Remember the Placebo effect exists.

Not Saran wrap, but Reynolds wrap. BIG difference!

 

[zbang]

Not Saran wrap, but Reynolds wrap. BIG difference!

No, use plastic wrap. If the client notices a difference, then it wasn't the meter (probably placebo). If you use metal foil, you are changing the environment, and you don't know if the metal shielding or the fact that you did something made a difference.

 

[kwired]

Use a colored plastic wrap, then tell them it has lead, or other shielding components embedded in it for this purpose:happyyes:

Even the antistatic wrap we sometimes find electronic components wrapped in may be convincing enough.

 

[kbsparky]

Use a colored plastic wrap, then tell them it has lead, or other shielding components embedded in it for this purpose:happyyes:

Even the antistatic wrap we sometimes find electronic components wrapped in may be convincing enough.

The anti-static wrap may have enough stuff in it to block out the undesirable emissions and do the job of shielding the customer from those effects ....

 

[Electric-Light]

I'm not sure if the GE Meter uses power line carrier or FlexNet, but latter does not use line conduction to transmit.

FlexNet uses dedicated spectrum it is granted from the FCC in ~900ish MHz range at transmission power of up to two watts.
The bi-directional communication is to a base station, which then links to power company by internet through wired or wireless network. A setup very much like cell phone towers.

http://sensus.com/documents/10157/32460/amr_456.pdf

Some of these FlexNet meters have an integrated relay that permits the PoCo to perform service disconnect/reconnect remotely.

 

[kbsparky]

Here is what they use to communicate with those smart meters:

 

[robbietan]

Does this mean there is an agreed-upon danger level or that these people were just politically connected?

the "danger level" as contained in a WHO report (and also in effect in our country) is 800 milligauss.

it is a case of politically connected people and their lawyers bullying politically inept engineers