Disappointed in 2005 IAEI analysis

[sandsnow]

Check out this picture illustrating 680.74:


I don't agree with this. That copper piping is not in contact with the circulating water. I don't believe that ground clamp will be accessible after the tub is finished either.

How about this one:


You don't have to use a common trip C/B for a multiwire BC. You don't even have to use a common trip C/B for line to line loads except an ungrounded system. Identified handle ties are fine.

I'm finding it hard to reccomend this book these days. I hope the 2008 is better. These are pretty glaring errors IMO.

 

[Cavie]

How about this one:


You don't have to use a common trip C/B for a multiwire BC. You don't even have to use a common trip C/B for line to line loads except an ungrounded system. Identified handle ties are fine.

.

I disagree. I have seen many ITE handle ties on quads only trip one leg. they do not always work too much play.

As for the spa, the piping IS the circulating water. Turn it on to add hot water while the pump is running and volia! you have contact with circulating water

 

[sandsnow]

It's not about tripping or the opening of the OCPD. If so, then fuses could not be used for line to line loads. It's about manually opeing the circuit.

EDIT add: Hmmm....so if you used pex to supply the tub and a metal valve body, you would have to bond the valve body??? I'm not so sure about that.

 

[00zer]

IAEI, the BBB of the electrical industry

IAEI, the BBB of the electrical industry

The pipe may not be in contact with circulating water (for the tub) but the motor is, and that's what is being bonded in the picture.

That second picture has got to be an error unless they aim to change the rule. I wouldn't put it past 'em.

Here, where I work, the local IAEI goons enforce some of the strangest crap imaginable. It all comes from them sittin' in a room together arguin' over the what a sentence "really" means 'cause it has a 'the' instead of an 'a' in front of a word. 'Round here, city inspectors look down on ya like you're not a real inspector/contractor unless you're a bonified card caryin' member. Self appointed, self important people, just like the BBB.

I think I'm gonna start the ADC, the American Donut Council. All donut shops will have to provide free donuts for testing and pay membership dues. We'll advertise as the only source of information on donuts. If you go somewhere else, you're taking a chance. After all, 4 people DIED last year due to bird flue virus found in cheap donuts! If you don't join, we won't recommend you and we'll let the public know that there's a possibility that your donuts could be substandard or even dangerous. We can't know for sure because you refuse to join the ADC. But we have personally verified that your competition down the street has nice, fresh, SAFE donuts. That is, after their check cleared.

 

[raider1]

That copper piping is not in contact with the circulating water.

The metal piping systems mentioned in 680.74 are not required to be in contact with the circulating water. This is a common mis-reading of that section. The section states "All metal piping systems, and all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together....."

So it is the grounded metal parts that are in contact with the circulating water not the metal piping.

Chris

 

[iwire]

I disagree. I have seen many ITE handle ties on quads only trip one leg. they do not always work too much play.

Handle ties are not intended to trip the other poles, the only function of a handle tie is to keep us from turning off just one pole.

As for the spa, the piping IS the circulating water. Turn it on to add hot water while the pump is running and volia! you have contact with circulating water

I really think you are misinterpreting that.

The fresh water supply pipes are not in contact with the circulating water.

By your interpretation what pipes are not in contact with the circuiting water?

 

[sandsnow]

So you are saying the the words "in contact with circulating water" do not modify the words "metal piping"?

The section as you read it would state: All metal piping shall be bonded together using a copper bonding jumper,......... Note I deleted the words about metal parts. It doesn't make sense that way.

Edit add: Oh yeah, there is no comma in the Code after "systems"

 

[raider1]

So you are saying the the words "in contact with circulating water" do not modify the words "metal piping"?

The section as you read it would state: All metal piping shall be bonded together using a copper bonding jumper,......... Note I deleted the words about metal parts. It doesn't make sense that way.

There are 2 items that are required to be bonded together by this section,

1st. Metal piping systems

2nd. Grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water.

So if you have a metal piping system supplying water to the tub then you have item #1 and if you have a grounded pump motor then you have item #2.

According to this section you would then bond the 2 items together.

Chris

 

[raider1]

Edit add: Oh yeah, there is no comma in the Code after "systems"

Yes you are correct, I accidentally put the comma in when I typed that section, my apologizes.

Chris

 

[iwire]

The metal piping systems mentioned in 680.74 are not required to be in contact with the circulating water.

Chris, I do not agree with that.

By your reading there is no limit to the distance from the tub to the pipes you say I have to bond.

Literally you are saying bond "All metal piping systems".

All in the room with the tub?

All on that floor?

All in that dwelling?

All in that building?

You see what I am getting at?

 

[raider1]

You see what I am getting at?

Yes iwire, I do.

I agree that this section is very poorly worded, but my feeling (for what ever it is worth) is that the intent of this section is to require the metal piping system that is supplying the tub to be bonded to the pump motor and not the piping system that is built into the tub.

It makes no sense for the NEC to require that the electrician bond the factory installed piping to the factory installed pump motor, this would be something that should be addressed by a product standard, not the NEC.

I still feel that the use of the conjuntion "and" in this section separates this into two items, and that "in contact with the circulating water" only applys to the grounded metal parts.

Chris

 

[raider1]

Here is an ROP from the 2008 cycle:

17-167 Log #618 NEC-P17 Final Action: Accept in Principle
(680.74)
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Submitter: Michael J. Johnston Plano, TX
Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows:
680.74 Bonding. All metal piping systems supplying hydromassage bathtubs, including metal piping and all grounded
metal parts in contact with the circulating water, shall be bonded together using a copper bonding jumper, insulated,
covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG solid. The bonding jumper shall terminate at the pump motor on a terminal for
this purpose.
FPN: The 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding conductor shall not be required to be extended or attached to any
remote panelboard, service equipment, or any electrode.
Substantiation: The proposed revision is for clarification purposes. There continues to be considerable confusion and
inconsistency in how this requirement is being applied in the field. The common practices currently include bonding the
hot and cold water piping supplying the tub to the terminal lug on the pump motor (other than double insulated types).
The current text is being viewed and interpreted by some as only requiring "metal piping systems and grounded metal
parts in contact with the circulation water" to be bonded. The piping for the circulation water of a hydromassage tub is
typically nonmetallic. The questions arise as to the requirement for bonding the hot and cold water supply piping system
that is connected to the tub. If the objective is to place all metal piping and metal parts such as faucets and valves
associated with the hydromassage tub at the same equipotential plane, then the Code should clearly require that, and
not leave users with any question as to what is required to be bonded and where the bonding jumper is required to be
connected. The proposed FPN is the same one that follows 680.26 to help clarify that this bonding conductor does not
have to be routed to a panelboard or service equipment or grounding electrode.
Note: Supporting material is available for review at NFPA Headquarters.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept in Principle
Panel Statement: See panel action on Proposal 17-166.

It appears to me that the intent of this section is to provide equipotential plane around the hydromassage bathtub, which would include the metal piping that supplys the tub but doesn't neccesarily come into contact with the circulating water.

Chris

 

[sandsnow]

There's another thing wrong with this I realized.

Let's say the metal pipe is supposed to be bonded. Then why is it bonded to the motor. The pump is made of plastic. The shaft is isolated from the water by design. The metal of the motor is grounded, but it is not in contact with the water. So there would be no bonding required anyway.

EDIT add: Thanks for posting the ROP. It addresses exactly what is being discussed. So if the motor in my picture was double insulated, then it would not have to be bonded. I believe that is part of what Johnston was saying and what the CMP accepted in principle.

 

[iwire]

Here is an ROP from the 2008 cycle:

Chris, they did not change that part of 680.74 in the 2008 it remains as it was.

I still feel that it applies only to the pipes in contact with the water.

If not you could make me run a 8 AWG solid bonding conductor to the kitchen to pick up the gas line feeding the stove.

 

[raider1]

There's another thing wrong with this I realized.

Let's say the metal pipe is supposed to be bonded. Then why is it bonded to the motor. The pump is made of plastic. The shaft is isolated from the water by design. The metal of the motor is grounded, but it is not in contact with the water. So there would be no bonding required anyway.

I agree, this section is one of the worst worded sections in the NEC.

Chris

 

[sandsnow]

It must be a zombie like nightmare writing the codebook. I bet all the words look the same after a while.

 

[raider1]

Chris, they did not change that part of 680.74 in the 2008 it remains as it was.

I still feel that it applies only to the pipes in contact with the water.

If not you could make me run a bonding wire to the kitchen to pick up the gas line feeding the stove.

I agree that this section is very tough to enforce. The way I read this section you are correct, it has no limitations as to where to draw the line at what metal piping systems are required to be bonded.

The problem with this section is like I tried to point out, the factory piping system on all hydromassage bathtubs that I have hooked up are all non-metallic. So basically if the piping system must be in contact with the circulating water to require being bonded then this section is a waste of ink, because the tub manufactures use non-metallic piping systems.

Also if the intent of this section is to require the factory installed piping to be bonded to the factory installed motor wouldn't that be outside of the scope of the NEC as this is all part of a manufactured piece of equipement?

Chris

 

[raider1]

It must be a zombie like nightmare writing the codebook. I bet all the words look the same after a while.

All the words start looking the same to me just reading the code book, let alone writing it.

Chris

 

[infinity]

I really think you are misinterpreting that.

The fresh water supply pipes are not in contact with the circulating water.

By your interpretation what pipes are not in contact with the circuiting water?

I agree with Bob. Do I need to bond the metal piping system on my compressor in the garage to my tub?


I'm no English major but the wording does not support the argument that all metal piping systems need to be bonded to the tub. Only the ones that contain the circulating water which does not include the water from the faucet.

 

[iwire]

I agree that this section is very tough to enforce. The way I read this section you are correct, it has no limitations as to where to draw the line at what metal piping systems are required to be bonded.

Chris the fact that your read on this results in an "unlimited bonding requirement" IMO proves you are misinterpreting it.

An inspector should not be expected to draw a line here, the code says what it says. So if the code literally means "all metal piping systems" and you draw a line at just the supply water pipes you have left violations.

The problem with this section is like I tried to point out, the factory piping system on all hydromassage bathtubs that I have hooked up are all non-metallic. So basically if the piping system must be in contact with the circulating water to require being bonded then this section is a waste of ink, because the tub manufactures use non-metallic piping systems.

Chris IMHO you should not be considering any of the above, the code section says what it says. :smile:

Perhaps there was a time when the tub makers did use metal lines (I have not seen it either) but that is really none of our concern based on the current wording.

Can I ask you a couple of questions?

Presently the section says..

680.74 Bonding All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water......

1) How would you choose to word section that to reflect my belief that both must be in contact with the water?

2) How would bonding the supply pipes not in contact with the circulating water make the installation safer?