Disappointed in 2005 IAEI analysis

[iwire]

Also if the intent of this section is to require the factory installed piping to be bonded to the factory installed motor wouldn't that be outside of the scope of the NEC as this is all part of a manufactured piece of equipement?

I have lost track long ago where the NEC stops, it seems to be a moving target at best. :grin:

A metal prefab pool is a manufactured piece of equipment but I still have to bond it.

 

[infinity]

Presently the section says.

680.74 Bonding All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water......


1) How would you choose to word section that to reflect my belief that both must be in contact with the water?

I would re-write the sentence:

All grounded metal parts and all metal piping systems in contact with the circulating water...

 

[Smart $]

Presently the section says..

680.74 Bonding All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water......

1) How would you choose to word section that to reflect my belief that both must be in contact with the water?

2) How would bonding the supply pipes not in contact with the circulating water make the installation safer?

1) I wouldn't change the wording. I do not believe the metal piping system has to be in contact with the water... read on.

2) Because there is no guarantee that the metal piping system local to the tub is bonded to ground, or will remain that way indefinitely. Part of the supply piping system could be non-metallic and metallic used only local to the tub. Bonding the grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water with metal piping system (local to the tub) ensures, to a high degree, there will be no differential charges present between the grounded parts in contact with the circulating water and the metal water supply parts (that are not in contact with the circulating water).

That is to say, if the metal piping is not bonded to ground anywhere along its conductive path and connected to a metal faucet for the tub, should the piping becomes energized by a fault, there would be a potentially fatal differential charge between the body of water and the metal faucet.

 

[iwire]

1) I wouldn't change the wording. I do not believe the metal piping system has to be in contact with the water... read on.

So in your opinion I must run an 8 AWG solid into the kitchen to bond the gas line to the stove and another 8 AWG out to the garage for the air compressor lines out there?

2) Because there is no guarantee that the metal piping system local to the tub is bonded to ground, or will remain that way indefinitely. -

And just how is the person in the tub coming into contact with these pipes?

So in my own house my tub drain is cast iron, must I bond to that as well?

 

[russ]

Before the 2005 NEC, the section in earlier versions said," associated with the hydromassage tub".
If your on a version before 2005 your required to have the supply pipes bonded.

 

[Smart $]

1) I wouldn't change the wording. I do not believe the metal piping system has to be in contact with the water...

So in your opinion I must run an 8 AWG solid into the kitchen to bond the gas line to the stove and another 8 AWG out to the garage for the air compressor lines out there?

No. You are taking the requirement out of its context.

Perhaps the wording should be changed for you and those of the same persuasion. Replace "All..." with "Associated..."

And just how is the person in the tub coming into contact with these pipes?

Not necessarily in contact with the pipes, but conductive parts in contact with or connected to the pipes... such as a metal water faucet.

So in my own house my tub drain is cast iron, must I bond to that as well?

I don't know. Is it a hydromessage tub? Are there grounded metal parts in contact with circulating water? If yes to both questions, yes to yours.

 

[iwire]

No. You are taking the requirement out of its context.

Perhaps the wording should be changed for you and those of the same persuasion. Replace "All..." with "Associated...".

I have no idea what you are saying.

 

[Smart $]

I have no idea what you are saying.

You asked if I was of the opinion that you needed to bond to the gas line (metal piping system) in the kitchen and the air compressor line (metal piping system) in the garage. The answer is no, I'm not of that opinion. To have such an opinion would be taking the bonding requirement of 680.74 out of context?which is metal piping systems [locally] associated with the hydromessage tub.

I believe many misinterpretations occur from failure to consider the context under which the requirement is written. The best alternative to alleviate the misinterpretations is to include the context in the requirement.

 

[iwire]

You asked if I was of the opinion that you needed to bond to the gas line (metal piping system) in the kitchen and the air compressor line (metal piping system) in the garage. The answer is no, I'm not of that opinion. To have such an opinion would be taking the bonding requirement of 680.74 out of context—which is metal piping systems [locally] associated with the hydromessage tub.

I disagree, if you take circulating water out of it there is no context.

The present wording either requires bonding all metal piping without limits or bonding of only the metal piping in contact with the circulating water.

There is no third option, it's one or the other, not some vague middle point.

 

[Smart $]

I disagree, if you take circulating water out of it there is no context.

This is not the context I mean—which is "All metal piping systems" vs locally associated "All metal piping systems", where the latter is the correct context [IMSO], regardless of being "in contact with circulating water".

Article 680: Swimming Pools, Fountains, and Similar Installations
VII. Hydromessage Bathtubs
680.74 Bonding. All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together using a solid copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG…

The preceding statement eliminates the first scenario of your next statement from being a viable interpretation [IMSO].

The present wording either requires bonding all metal piping without limits or bonding of only the metal piping in contact with the circulating water.

There is no third option, it's one or the other, not some vague middle point.

...And so, apparently, there is a third option, for I do not read the requirement as the conditional phrase "in contact with the circulating water" applying to both "All metal piping systems" and "all grounded parts". It only places the condition on grounded parts. I believe it would have been written "All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts, in contact with the circulating water, shall be bonded..." if that were the intent.

 

[raider1]

Iwire,

Here is a good revision to the text of 680.74

Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows:
680.74 Bonding. All metal piping systems supplying hydromassage bathtubs, including metal piping and all grounded
metal parts in contact with the circulating water, shall be bonded together using a copper bonding jumper, insulated,
covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG solid. The bonding jumper shall terminate at the pump motor on a terminal for
this purpose.
FPN: The 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding conductor shall not be required to be extended or attached to any
remote panelboard, service equipment, or any electrode.

This was a porposal that was subimitted for the 2008 code cycle.

Here was the substantiation for the above quoted text change.

Substantiation: The proposed revision is for clarification purposes. There continues to be considerable confusion and
inconsistency in how this requirement is being applied in the field. The common practices currently include bonding the
hot and cold water piping supplying the tub to the terminal lug on the pump motor (other than double insulated types).
The current text is being viewed and interpreted by some as only requiring "metal piping systems and grounded metal
parts in contact with the circulation water" to be bonded. The piping for the circulation water of a hydromassage tub is
typically nonmetallic. The questions arise as to the requirement for bonding the hot and cold water supply piping system
that is connected to the tub. If the objective is to place all metal piping and metal parts such as faucets and valves
associated with the hydromassage tub at the same equipotential plane, then the Code should clearly require that, and
not leave users with any question as to what is required to be bonded and where the bonding jumper is required to be
connected. The proposed FPN is the same one that follows 680.26 to help clarify that this bonding conductor does not
have to be routed to a panelboard or service equipment or grounding electrode.
Note: Supporting material is available for review at NFPA Headquarters.

According to the ROP this porposal was accepted in principal. I don't have a ROC from CMP 17 so I have no idea why this was accepted in principal but the wording never appeared in the 2008 NEC.

1) How would you choose to word section that to reflect my belief that both must be in contact with the water?

I agree with smart$'s wording.

"All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts, in contact with the circulating water, shall be bonded..."

Chris

 

[sandsnow]

I wonder what happened. Here's the ROC. We would still be in a bit of a quandry here. They did not clarify the piping issue. So in the picture in the OP, there would be no bonding required if the motor is double insulated. According to UL, I believe they say that all hydro tub motors are double insulated anyway.

17-110 Log #215 NEC-P17 Final Action: Accept
(680.74)
________________________________________________________
Submitter: Technical Correlating Committee on National Electrical Code
Comment on Proposal No: 17-166

Recommendation: The Technical Correlating Committee directs that the panel
reconsider and clarify the panel action on this proposal by using mandatory
language in accordance with the NEC Style Manual. This action will be
considered by the panel as a public comment.

Substantiation: This is a direction from the National Electrical Code Technical
Correlating Committee in accordance with 3.4.2 and 3.4.3 of the Regulations
Governing Committee Projects.

Panel Meeting Action: Accept

Revise 680.74 to read as follows:
680.74 Bonding. All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in
contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together using a copper
bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG solid.
The bonding jumper shall be connected to the terminal on the circulating
pump motor that is intended for this purpose. The bonding jumper shall not be
required to be connected to a double insulated circulating pump motor. The 8
AWG or larger solid copper bonding jumper shall be required for equipotential
bonding in the area of the hydromasage bathtub and shall not be required to
be extended or attached to any remote panelboard, service equipment, or any
electrode.

Panel Statement: The panel accepts the direction of the TCC to clarify the
panel action and has made the needed changes.
Number Eligible to Vote: 11
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 10
Ballot Not Returned: 1 Gill, C.

 

[raider1]

Thanks for posting that larry.

The proposal that I referenced in my above post was actually 17-167 Log #618 NEC-P17

Here is the entire proposal as submitted:

17-167 Log #618 NEC-P17 Final Action: Accept in Principle
(680.74)
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Submitter: Michael J. Johnston Plano, TX
Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows:
680.74 Bonding. All metal piping systems supplying hydromassage bathtubs, including metal piping and all grounded
metal parts in contact with the circulating water, shall be bonded together using a copper bonding jumper, insulated,
covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG solid. The bonding jumper shall terminate at the pump motor on a terminal for
this purpose.
FPN: The 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding conductor shall not be required to be extended or attached to any
remote panelboard, service equipment, or any electrode.
Substantiation: The proposed revision is for clarification purposes. There continues to be considerable confusion and
inconsistency in how this requirement is being applied in the field. The common practices currently include bonding the
hot and cold water piping supplying the tub to the terminal lug on the pump motor (other than double insulated types).
The current text is being viewed and interpreted by some as only requiring "metal piping systems and grounded metal
parts in contact with the circulation water" to be bonded. The piping for the circulation water of a hydromassage tub is
typically nonmetallic. The questions arise as to the requirement for bonding the hot and cold water supply piping system
that is connected to the tub. If the objective is to place all metal piping and metal parts such as faucets and valves
associated with the hydromassage tub at the same equipotential plane, then the Code should clearly require that, and
not leave users with any question as to what is required to be bonded and where the bonding jumper is required to be
connected. The proposed FPN is the same one that follows 680.26 to help clarify that this bonding conductor does not
have to be routed to a panelboard or service equipment or grounding electrode.
Note: Supporting material is available for review at NFPA Headquarters.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept in Principle
Panel Statement: See panel action on Proposal 17-166.

The only thing that doesn't show up when I cut and paste is the underlining of the new text and the strike out of the word "together" from the sentence "shall be bonded together using a copper bonding jumper...."

Chris

 

[iwire]

It must have been shot down at the meetings that come after the ROPs.

The fact it was not accepted only supports my position.

I have also been looking at the ROPs ROCs for 2002 and they are interesting, I will post them later.

Basically the CMP comments that things out of reach of the tub occupant do not require bonding ..... ie the supply pipes buried in the wall. (Thats from memory please do not hold me to it )

 

[iwire]

This is not the context I mean?which is "All metal piping systems" vs locally associated "All metal piping systems", where the latter is the correct context [IMSO], regardless of being "in contact with circulating water".

There are no words in the section to support that view.

It may well be the intent but the words are not there to support that.

...And so, apparently, there is a third option,

We will remain in disagreement about that.

 

[raider1]

Basically the CMP comments that things out of reach of the tub occupant do not require bonding ..... ie the supply pipes buried in the wall. (Thats from memory please do not hold me to it )

Interesting, the supply pipes will be connected the faucet and therefore in reach of the tub.

Chris

 

[iwire]

Interesting, the supply pipes will be connected the faucet and therefore in reach of the tub.

If that is the case I can see the need for bonding without question.

However don't the supply pipes generally connect to plastic lines before reaching the valve body?

That was my impression.

 

[iwire]

Here is what I found for the 2005 NEC

Report on Comments ? May 2004
17-183 Log #732 NEC-P17 Final Action: Accept in Principle
( 680.74 )

Panel Statement: The need for bonding in a bathroom differs from the need for bonding in a pool area. Electrical equipment of a hydromassage bathtub is not accessible to users of the tub. Only parts that can cause a voltage gradient in the bathtub need to be bonded. Section 680.74 has been concisely reworded to require the bonding of only the parts that present a risk of creating voltage gradients in the hydromassage bathtub.

The panelʼs action on 17-183 supersedes the panelʼs action on ROP 17-153

 

[raider1]

If that is the case I can see the need for bonding without question.

However don't the supply pipes generally connect to plastic lines before reaching the valve body?

That was my impression.

Iwire, If you take a close look at the picture in the OP you will see that the copper supply line connects directly to the valves without going through a plastic line.

Only parts that can cause a voltage gradient in the bathtub need to be bonded.

Wouldn't a grounded metal supply pipe be a possible cause of a voltage gradient?

Also, how would an isolated recirculating piping system installed within the bathtub cause a voltage gradient?

Chris

 

[iwire]

Iwire,

iwire when we disagree, Bob when we agree? :-?

I am Bob. :smile:

If you take a close look at the picture in the OP you will see that the copper supply line connects directly to the valves without going through a plastic line.

Then I see a need, I still don't see it in the words.

Also, how would an isolated recirculating piping system installed within the bathtub cause a voltage gradient?

I don't know.