Disconnect for detached garage?

[jap]

All it really does is move the point at which the Service Wiring Ends and the Feeder begins.

And I Feel a bit more better about the possibility of my 200a Enclosed Breaker on the Pole out there tripping if someone should happen to get into my feeder rather than waiting on the Primary fuse on the power company's transformer to blow out. I also like the ability to shut off the Feeder to the house myself if I'm the one who has to maintain it.

I think if there is no overcurrent protection at the meter that is remote from the structure the Burial depth should be much deeper.

That may be the case already for all I found out today.

JAP>

 

[paul renshaw]

Isn't 230.40 Exc.3 what permits this? If there are no amendments, how can AHJ deny it? I had the same thing happen years ago in this exact type of installation and AHJ said no, but Judge said yes. "Because I said so" was not a good enough reason that day.

 

[jap]

I've never considered a Utility Meter as a "Means of Disconnect" but that's irrellevant.
If there is a pole that is located away from a structure and thats where the service wires come down, then by rights there's no need to install the meter out there in the first place.

The conduit could extend all the way to the structure and the meter located on the structure.

Some Power Company's are responsible for the wire and maintenance all the way to the line side of the Meter Base and thats where they stop.
Some Power Companies make you install the wire from thier service point to line side of the meter.

I've done it both ways.

 

[paul renshaw]

"The conduit could extend all the way to the structure and the meter located on the structure."
That's how my home service is.

 

[jap]

Probably what happens most of the time is the Pole is Set for the Temporary while under construction and the Meter and Disconnect somehow end up on that same pole after the fact for the lack of knowing that it doesnt have to.

 

[jap]

On another note, the power companies around here are providing the Pedestals. You tell them what size Service you need and they come and set the Transformer and the pedestal and then you have to install the 4 wire feeder from there. There's a housing Addition next to my house and there's probably 100 of those pedestals already set.
That reduces thier responsiblity by a long shot and increases the customers expense of having to provide the wiring from the pedestal to the house.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Some people don't want a meter at the house and some utilities may not want to pay for the wire to the house so they make you install the meter at a pole and the customer must pay from there

 

[jap]

Some people don't want a meter at the house and some utilities may not want to pay for the wire to the house so they make you install the meter at a pole and the customer must pay from there

That's exactly right and that's where the dividing line between the service and the feeder are decided upon.

 

[david luchini]

That's exactly right and that's where the dividing line between the service and the feeder are decided upon.

Not necessarily. As Dennis noted, you could have a meter on a pole without disconnecting means, and the conductors from the meter to the building would be service-entrance conductors, not a feeder.

 

[jap]

I didnt say where that point was,,,,, I just said that's when the decision gets made.

 

[busman]

I think the issue is that there needs to be a service disconnect and, if more than one, they need to be grouped. How is this achieved with one disconnect at the house and one at the garage. A meter is NOT a disconnect in my opinion and neither is the cut-out on the pole either.

Mark

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I think the issue is that there needs to be a service disconnect and, if more than one, they need to be grouped. How is this achieved with one disconnect at the house and one at the garage. A meter is NOT a disconnect in my opinion and neither is the cut-out on the pole either.

Mark

They don't need to be grouped. The 6 disconnect rule is allowed at each building so no need for a diso at the main building if you come off the service line side.

 

[kwired]

I've never considered a Utility Meter as a "Means of Disconnect" but that's irrellevant.
If there is a pole that is located away from a structure and thats where the service wires come down, then by rights there's no need to install the meter out there in the first place.

The conduit could extend all the way to the structure and the meter located on the structure.

Some Power Company's are responsible for the wire and maintenance all the way to the line side of the Meter Base and thats where they stop.
Some Power Companies make you install the wire from thier service point to line side of the meter.

I've done it both ways.

A meter is not a means of disconnect, it is just a point in the service conductors. NEC does not require a meter, POCO does. Sometimes with fixed loads there is no meter - like roadway lighting.

Probably what happens most of the time is the Pole is Set for the Temporary while under construction and the Meter and Disconnect somehow end up on that same pole after the fact for the lack of knowing that it doesnt have to.

I suppose that can happen. I often only have a 60 amp temp service and the permanent service is often 200 amps though.

On another note, the power companies around here are providing the Pedestals. You tell them what size Service you need and they come and set the Transformer and the pedestal and then you have to install the 4 wire feeder from there. There's a housing Addition next to my house and there's probably 100 of those pedestals already set.
That reduces thier responsiblity by a long shot and increases the customers expense of having to provide the wiring from the pedestal to the house.

What happens down the road when the POCO changes their policy of what they provide, and they replace with something that has no main. Around here if POCO provides it it is generally treated as if it were service equipment with no overcurrent devices. This is not so much of a problem with three wire vs four wire feed leaving such equipment, but has been a bigger factor with whether or not an additional service disconnect is necessary.

That's exactly right and that's where the dividing line between the service and the feeder are decided upon.

Meter location often determines the "service point" and not necessarily the start of a feeder.

I think the issue is that there needs to be a service disconnect and, if more than one, they need to be grouped. How is this achieved with one disconnect at the house and one at the garage. A meter is NOT a disconnect in my opinion and neither is the cut-out on the pole either.

Mark

They are separate buildings, you could have a meter on each one if you wanted to subscribe for 2 services. You could have multiple meters on each building for that matter if you wanted separate billing for specific loads, or for multiple occupants.

 

[busman]

They don't need to be grouped. The 6 disconnect rule is allowed at each building so no need for a diso at the main building if you come off the service line side.

OK, I buy that. Thanks.

Mark

 

[jap]

I suppose that can happen. I often only have a 60 amp temp service and the permanent service is often 200 amps though.

So your saying the power company comes out and feeds your temporary with a 60 amp service and then turns around and builds you a 200 amp service after the fact?

You must be thier favorite electrician.

Not around here. The service and wire that they size to feed the temporary is in turn used to feed the permanent.

 

[jap]

You'll have the 200 Amp capability feeding the Temporary.

 

[renosteinke]

David, "IMO" means 'in my opinion.' That's what it is: my opinion, my professional judgement. The NEC is not a cookbook, and there's no rule that says you can only do what you're 'required' to do.

Why do I believe there's a need? Why did I suggest the meterwas a disconnecting means?

Because I have seen far too many inspected services where there was no disconnecting means at the meter. That means there were wires from the meter that had no overload protection. Let me give two examples:

A customer of mine was hanging a shelf when he put the screw right into the SER from the meter to the panel. This wire had exited the back of the meter pan, gone up the wall 6-ft, across the ceiling of a 10-ft. room, and down inside another wall 5-ft to a panel in a closet. The only way to stop the sparks from flying was to pull the meter.
My house was wired the same way (1957). Half this town was. Even today, the NEC allows for this, under the vague "nerest the point of entry." Now there's a local ordinance tht calls for a disconnect at the meter.

The other example was a feeder which I was careful to run, in pipe, 30" down in rocky soil. Two weeks later I was back; yup, someone had got a backhoe and dug it up. In that case, the breaker at the start of the run did it's job. Code would have allowed me to only have a disconnecting means at the far end of the run. I'm glad I was redundant.

You're right; the lined from the PoCo are unfused. That's their problem. I want a disco, or at least a breaker, right at the meter. I want to reduce the risk, the harm that will happen, when something "unforseen" happens.

Except that errant screws and enthusiastic backhoe operators are not 'unforseen.'

 

[jap]

I'm with Renosteike.

JAP.

 

[jap]

Sorry, wrong spelling, Renosteinke.

 

[david luchini]

David, "IMO" means 'in my opinion.' That's what it is: my opinion, my professional judgement. The NEC is not a cookbook, and there's no rule that says you can only do what you're 'required' to do.

I believe that this is the NEC forum, and the question from the OP was whether code would require the conductors to the detached garage to be a feeder.

There is no "need" (that is to say, Code requirement) to provide a disconnect after the meter and run to the detached garage as a feeder.