- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
The Kenmore quote was for a garbage disposal (the topic of the post it replied to), so there may or may not be similar wording for Kenmore dishwashers.
dishwasher/disposal
- Thread starter bobbymari
- Start date
- Status
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
And what was listing instructions for the cord you used?
This is starting to smell a little like the classified breaker issues.
drspec
Member
- Location
- North Carolina
InSinkErator cord kit for disposal http://www.insinkerator.com/en-us/H...e-Disposers/Evolution/Pages/PowerCordKit.aspx Whirlpool cord kit for dishwasher http://www.lowes.com/pd_172498-46-4...RL=?Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&facetInfo= GE cord kit for dishwasher http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-6-ft-...14664?keyword=ge+dishwasher+cord#.UbvAECDD_mI
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
And what was listing instructions for the cord you used?
This is starting to smell a little like the classified breaker issues.
It was the GE cord linked in post #23 below.
Those cords would still need to be mentioned explicitly in the appliance manufacturer's instructions to be code compliant.
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
Thanks drspec.
Which leads to the next interesting question: If the InSinkerator installation instructions for the disposal do not mention cords at all but the instructions with the cord mention the model number of the disposal would that satisfy NEC or state rules that the cord model number be in the appliance instructions?
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
I noticed on the page for the whirlpool there was a "customers also viewed" category near bottom of page. This may very well have different items displayed for others but I had a similar cord for GE dishwashers displayed there. Looked to be nearly identical specification wise but was $20.00 higher price.
Are you in violation of NEC if you do not use the wire connectors in the kit, or even the cord connector in the kit(basically an NM cable connector)? :ashamed:
drspec
Member
- Location
- North Carolina
I use the InSinkErator cord kit for all brands of disposal and the GE cord kit for all brands of dishwashers. I normally get them at Home Depot. $11.99 for the InSinkErator cord kit and $9.97 for the GE cord kit. (I just got several of these for $4.88 each) Never had a problem with any inspectors, but as far as it technically being in violation of NEC, probably.
PetrosA
Senior Member
- Location
- Lancaster, Pennsylvania
I use 14/3 SO cords for both disposals and dishwashers with plastic compression style connectors and have never had issues with inspectors. I think the manufacturers would be hard pressed to sell me a better solution
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Thanks for the links. The problem I see with this is that when the plumber goes into his supply house and picks up the disposal unit, if the cord set is a separate purchase - he never buys it. When the HO purchases the DW from an appliance dealer and the cord set is a separate purchase - it's never included in the sale. At this point, is the onus on us as EC's to research and purchase the correct cord or do we hold up the job because the plumber and the HO did not supply the cords ?
mjf
Senior Member
Hard-wired to an toggle switch in the cabinet instead?
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Here is what it said in 1987 NEC:
Here is what it said in 1993 NEC:
I don't have 1990 NEC but I think it was similar to 1987 wording.
1996 wording is similar to 1993 wording.
For some reason I can't find my 1999 NEC so I don't know what is in there.
2002 wording is similar to what is in 2011 and is likely similar in those between.
So we have gone from NEC telling us what kind of cord is acceptable to the manufacturer telling us what cord is acceptable, and just like the classified breaker issue, why would the manufacturer suggest anything but what they sell? There is a good chance many manufacturers all have their acceptable cords made at the same place to the same specifications, only difference is the name on the packaging.:happysad:
Here is what it said in 1993 NEC:
I don't have 1990 NEC but I think it was similar to 1987 wording.
1996 wording is similar to 1993 wording.
For some reason I can't find my 1999 NEC so I don't know what is in there.
2002 wording is similar to what is in 2011 and is likely similar in those between.
So we have gone from NEC telling us what kind of cord is acceptable to the manufacturer telling us what cord is acceptable, and just like the classified breaker issue, why would the manufacturer suggest anything but what they sell? There is a good chance many manufacturers all have their acceptable cords made at the same place to the same specifications, only difference is the name on the packaging.:happysad:
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
I strongly advise against using rubber covered cord if you're making your own, and use SJT (vinyl/thermoplastic) cord instead. I just buy the premade ones anyway.
flappert
Member
- Location
- Sunrise,FL, USA
code or not
code or not
I could have sworn there was a code, or maybe there should be. As far as circuits, I have always ran a dedicated circuit for each appliance. I thought that was code. In the cab. under the sink there should be a dbl. gang ring with two single 15amp receptacles. Each on its own strap, my understanding is that 9 out of 10 times you run a branch circ. to the box. Instead of having 240v on one strap, you have to install two singles. I cant find this code, but every inspector agrees.
code or not
I could have sworn there was a code, or maybe there should be. As far as circuits, I have always ran a dedicated circuit for each appliance. I thought that was code. In the cab. under the sink there should be a dbl. gang ring with two single 15amp receptacles. Each on its own strap, my understanding is that 9 out of 10 times you run a branch circ. to the box. Instead of having 240v on one strap, you have to install two singles. I cant find this code, but every inspector agrees.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
It all depends on how much each appliance draws. Two 10 amp or less appliances on a 20 amp circuit doesn't present much trouble most of the time.
There is nothing prohibiting 240 volts on one strap, handle ties or double pole breakers do have to be used though.
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
Kwired,that is some wonderful research.
I guess if you have a 1987 dishwasher you can make your own cord.
If you have a 1993 dishwasher, good luck finding a length of SO cord that's specifically identified for "dishwasher' use. I'd love to see the reasoning, and identify the source of that change.
I've dealt with uncounted dishwashers and disposals, using the off-the-shelf 6-ft. pigtails from the bin at the parts house. OK, so I'm an outlaw. We can discuss my reasons on another thread. PM me if you want me to start it.
Nor, apart from an exercise in apprentice class, have I ever paid the slightest heed to load calculations for putting the dishwasher and disposal on the same circuit. Not even when the circuit serves other receptacles. I can't remember the last time I actually looked at the nameplate of either appliance.
As an excuse, I'll point out that often neither appliance is present at the time the circuit is run.
The OP is asking about a need for a separate circuit for each of these appliances. Lovely. I can only see that as a 'deduced' requirement, from calculating the loads of the appliances.
Gee, and here comes 2014, with a requirement that these appliances be protected by both GFCI and AFCI's. I can hardly wait.
I guess if you have a 1987 dishwasher you can make your own cord.
If you have a 1993 dishwasher, good luck finding a length of SO cord that's specifically identified for "dishwasher' use. I'd love to see the reasoning, and identify the source of that change.
I've dealt with uncounted dishwashers and disposals, using the off-the-shelf 6-ft. pigtails from the bin at the parts house. OK, so I'm an outlaw. We can discuss my reasons on another thread. PM me if you want me to start it.
Nor, apart from an exercise in apprentice class, have I ever paid the slightest heed to load calculations for putting the dishwasher and disposal on the same circuit. Not even when the circuit serves other receptacles. I can't remember the last time I actually looked at the nameplate of either appliance.
As an excuse, I'll point out that often neither appliance is present at the time the circuit is run.
The OP is asking about a need for a separate circuit for each of these appliances. Lovely. I can only see that as a 'deduced' requirement, from calculating the loads of the appliances.
Gee, and here comes 2014, with a requirement that these appliances be protected by both GFCI and AFCI's. I can hardly wait.
electricguy61
Senior Member
Back to the OP: Most of the cities here in the SF Bay Area require dedicated circuits for all motor loads, ie: furnace blower, garbage disposal, dishwasher, vent hood, etc. But these are local amendments to the NEC/CBC.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
After that, I really don't know if you are in agreement or disagreement with anything said in this thread.
Forget the issue of whether or not you can find an "appropriate" cord or not for the moment, and face some realities. I have never had a customer complaint resulting from a dishwasher and disposer being on the same branch circuit. Newer dishwashers have lower amp ratings then older ones, that is just the way it is with those and the "energy efficiency cops". Disposers, that all depends on just what model is chosen. But even if they choose the heavy duty higher amperage units, they typically do not run for a long enough period to trip breakers even if the dishwasher would happen to be running at the same time.
Both units could be hard wired to an individual branch circuit and everything is still the same as far as loading goes, you only eliminated any cord and plug issues.
As far as 2014 NEC goes, these new requirements likely are a joke, but I certainly can't do anything about it - at least for another three years
Undersink receptacles
Undersink receptacles
New kitchen sensor faucets (Moen, Delta, Kohler) are a reason to include two BC's under the sink. More builders are providing the electronic amenity as an attractive sales option. There is also a shower electronic valve control in the bathroom that is a little more of a fancy reach but that setup requires a GFCI interface with a cord cap in an accessible panel behind the wall.
Undersink receptacles
New kitchen sensor faucets (Moen, Delta, Kohler) are a reason to include two BC's under the sink. More builders are providing the electronic amenity as an attractive sales option. There is also a shower electronic valve control in the bathroom that is a little more of a fancy reach but that setup requires a GFCI interface with a cord cap in an accessible panel behind the wall.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Why would those items require additional branch circuits? The load of these items is likely next to nothing when it comes to branch circuit load calculations.
Even the shower unit would be allowed on the bathroom branch circuit unless the outlet is not considered to be in the bathroom.
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
"After that, I really don't know if you are in agreement or disagreement with anything said in this thread"
Good point, kwired. Perhaps because few of the responses addressed the OP's question. To clarify my response to the OP's question: Does the NEC require a separate circuit for the dishwasher/disposal?
IMO, there is no such specific requirement. Nowhere does the NEC say "the dishwasher and disposal shall be on an individual branch circuit, or circuits."
However .... from an academic point, you CAN point to load limits on circuits, whether they supply only 'fixed' loads, multiple motors, or a mix of fixed loads and convenience receptacles. Folks here have given examples where a combined circuit would be 'overloaded' under NEC rules. Thus, an additional circuit might be required.
The catch is that you can't say for sure without having the appliance nameplates handy - and the appliances are sure to change over time. The NEC does not provide us with any guidance in this situation.
Personally, I call it a design issue. Poor design = poor performance. Article 90 is pretty blunt- the NEC is about a practical, minimum amount of safety- and not at all interested that things work well.
Good point, kwired. Perhaps because few of the responses addressed the OP's question. To clarify my response to the OP's question: Does the NEC require a separate circuit for the dishwasher/disposal?
IMO, there is no such specific requirement. Nowhere does the NEC say "the dishwasher and disposal shall be on an individual branch circuit, or circuits."
However .... from an academic point, you CAN point to load limits on circuits, whether they supply only 'fixed' loads, multiple motors, or a mix of fixed loads and convenience receptacles. Folks here have given examples where a combined circuit would be 'overloaded' under NEC rules. Thus, an additional circuit might be required.
The catch is that you can't say for sure without having the appliance nameplates handy - and the appliances are sure to change over time. The NEC does not provide us with any guidance in this situation.
Personally, I call it a design issue. Poor design = poor performance. Article 90 is pretty blunt- the NEC is about a practical, minimum amount of safety- and not at all interested that things work well.
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