dishwasher feed

[LarryFine]

Re: dishwasher feed

Originally posted by charlie b:

Originally posted by electricmanscott: You can't use the SA circuits to feed more than one kitchen.

I think you can.

Sorry, Charlie. Art. 210.52 says, in part:
"(B)(3) Kitchen Receptacle Requirements.
No small-appliance branch circuit shall serve more than one kitchen."

However, it also says: "...either or both of which shall also be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the same kitchen and in other rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1)."

So the solution is to consider the outside room a dining room, and these S.A. circuits will supply receptacles for hot plates, etc., just as they are meant to, which is why dining room receptacles are permitted/required to be on 20a. S.A. circuits to begin with.

 

[LarryFine]

Re: dishwasher feed

Originally posted by LawnGuyLandSparky:
...using the same sa branch circuits as the original kitchen. (Yes, that's Kosher )

No, again, it isn't:

"(B)(3) Kitchen Receptacle Requirements.
No small-appliance branch circuit shall serve more than one kitchen."

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: dishwasher feed

Originally posted by charlie b:
Nothing in the NEC says that a kitchen must be indoors.

True enough. However this dwelling already has A kitchen indoors. Aagin if you do consider this outdoor area a kitchen you can not feed the receptacles from the other kitchen sa circuits. I see no legal way to use the sa circuits to feed this area.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Re: dishwasher feed

I'm leaning towards legal on this premis-

-because the outdoor foor preperation / grilling / serving area / Tiki bar is simply an extention of the existing kitchen. The glass doors and the fact that 1/2 my kitchen in indoors and 1/2 is outdoors does not 2 kitchens make.

-because although the 3 circuits to be shared could be considered small-appliance circuits, they're not the code-required 2 for the indoor kitchen, they're above and beyond them. So maybe I shouldn't be calling them small appliance circuits.

-because I'll have to install another subpanel if I can't utilize these 3 underutilized circuits. And I just got the garage looking perfect with no missing sheets of rock...

 

[LarryFine]

Re: dishwasher feed

Didn't like my "call it a dining room" idea?

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Re: dishwasher feed

It's OK but then what whould I call the dining room?

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: dishwasher feed

I have a hard time accepting an outdoor area separated by a door being included as part of the kitchen.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: dishwasher feed

NEC-2002 210.52(B)(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A) and (C) and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

It's not a kitchen, it's not a dining room. It's a similar area.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Re: dishwasher feed

Now we're getting somewhere! Alas.. there is a refrigerator, a small undercounter type for beer and such.

The definition of a kitchen here hinges on whether there is a permanent means of cooking, and that would be the built in grill.

Looks like I'll just make the undercounter refrigerator disappear for a while.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: dishwasher feed

Actually, in the city of Fort Collins, the range would be the deathblow to the project. You have two ranges, suddenly zoning issues arise.

Can't you just use the weatherproof at the back door? Extend it around, have a good time.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Re: dishwasher feed

The inside kitchen has a range. The outside has a grill and 2 side burners. It was on a frame with wheels but it's now "built in," in that it's sitting in a tiled niche of a built in countertop made of marine grade plywood and durrock. Fed from a propane tank.

2 ranges here would be a zoning issue as well, however since this is a unique installation, and I'm definately not housing another separate habitable living space behind a locked door, there is no zoning violation.

Outdoor kitchens are becoming all the rage here as I'm sure everywhere else, judging from the variety of stainless steel Weber grilles I see on the market... including entire "kitchenettes" complete with sink and refrigerator all in one neat (but heavy) package... (Often labeled 1 of 3, 2 of 3, and 3 of 3) ((Some assembly required!))

 

[macmikeman]

Re: dishwasher feed

How about you just run 2 or 3 circuits to feed receptacle outlets in this area, and not connect them to any of your kitchen, dining, or similar room outlets. Then call this the "billards room" or some such nonsense. Main thing is you have your 20 amp circuits, in case of heavy loads such as a crock pot or toaster plugged in there. By the way, anybody remember the Beverly Hillbilly's fancy eatin table?

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: dishwasher feed

By your own logic you have two kitchens. Therefore you can't share the sa circuits.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: dishwasher feed

You know, sometimes taking grilling to the "next level" isn't all it's cracked up to be.

 

[charlie b]

Re: dishwasher feed

Originally posted by LarryFine: Sorry, Charlie. Art. 210.52 says, in part: "(B)(3) Kitchen Receptacle Requirements. No small-appliance branch circuit shall serve more than one kitchen."

Good catch, Larry. I missed that one. Mea Culpa.

OK. So I would call this two separate kitchens. That means that each needs 2 SA circuits, and they can't share. So I would leave the existing wiring alone, and add 2 new circuits to feed the outdoor kitchen. By definition, they would be SA circuits. By the rule Larry quoted above, they cannot be shared by the indoor kitchen.

But if you are limited by breaker space, or if you want to reduce costs by sharing existing circuits, then perhaps there is another option. Make a list of all outlets in the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, and "similar areas." Find out which existing breakers feed which outlets. Again, by definition, all of these breakers are feeding SA circuits. If you discover that one or more of these breakers have no outlets within the existing indoor kitchen, then you can tap off them to feed the outdoor kitchen. As an example, if there is a breaker that feeds the dining room and the pantry, and that feeds nothing else, then you can use that circuit to feed the outdoor kitchen.

 

[allenwayne]

Re: dishwasher feed

A few years ago I did a 32,000 sq.ft. home in a placw called AVILLA.High ended gated community.There were 2 actual kitchens inside the house(builder got some zoning variance)
One a chefs kitchen all commercial equiptment,ansul system too.The 2nd was the regular kitchen,the appliances were worth more than I make in a year well close anyway.There was also an outdoor kitchen by the pool.But I wondered how it could be called an outdoor kitchen when the pool was built into the house
a/c, glass walls that was overlooked by the master bath and exercise room they totaled 2,050 ft. themselves I looked at the foreman and said after looking at what was on their truck .I think you need a bigger boat
After it was all said and done the hot check was pretty good except for a 6 gang of 4 ways where the travellers got confused and had to be rung out.
If you could have seen our warehousemans face when he asked what was needed and I said lets start with 1,000 receps.50 gfci`s,2501pole sw`s ,250 3 ways and 150 4 eaysand 500 can trims and bulbs oh and order a bunch of 20 amp breakers

 

[charlie b]

Re: dishwasher feed

Boy, I wish I had enough money to own such a house.

 

[dillon3c]

Re: dishwasher feed

Charlie it just ruin you!

*Fast cars..

*trophy blondes

*fancy bikes

*out past the wee-hours of the morning..

*Take my word for it charlie,just no good for you.

 

[charlie b]

Re: dishwasher feed

Been there, done that, have you? Can't I have a turn?

 

[dillon3c]

Re: dishwasher feed

Originally posted by charlie b:
[QB] Been there, done that, have you?

Of course not..

*seen books..

*read movies.. har har