dishwasher wiring

[Dennis Alwon]

But now they maybe need to define "window"?? Open front cabinet maybe has a "window" instead of a door on it? Some call an opening in a wall with no glass or no door a window or even "pass through window".

We might not be done with changes here.

It is murky. NC put "doors" back in but excluded "cabinet doors" But it has not passed yet as we still use the 2017 for residential wiring.

 

[lordofthisworld]

Dumb question I guess, but as long as I come off of the "load" side of a GFCI outlet under the sink, can I "direct" wire the dishwasher?
Will the reset serve as a disconnect for it or will I need a cord and plug attached to the dishwasher to provide an acceptable disconnect for it?
I'm going to be setting an outlet that will be "switched" for a garbage disposal also under the sink, but the dishwasher will be "hot" controlled by the switch on the dishwasher. I know we used to provide a switch up above the counter for a disconnect years ago before it was required to be GFI protected.
Thanks

Test button is not an approved disconnect.

 

[SSDriver]

Test button is not an approved disconnect.

Some of the blank face GFCI have both TEST and OFF printed on the blank face GFCI. They also say they are a switch on them or the literature. The one pictured below even says its a motor controller and switch. NOTE: I have not seen this on a GFCI receptacle, only on the blank face units (they may have them now, I just haven't seen them.)

 

[curt swartz]

Some of the blank face GFCI have both TEST and OFF printed on the blank face GFCI. They also say they are a switch on them or the literature. The one pictured below even says its a motor controller and switch. NOTE: I have not seen this on a GFCI receptacle, only on the blank face units (they may have them now, I just haven't seen them.)

View attachment 2559552

Those can be uses as the controller (switch) but not as the disconnect. They depend on power to function and they do not clearly indicate if they are in the on or off position.

 

[SSDriver]

Those can be uses as the controller (switch) but not as the disconnect. They depend on power to function and they do not clearly indicate if they are in the on or off position.

Yes they do with lights. No light, no power. And they do not need power to shut the load off(open the contacts). You only need power to turn the load back on.

If I'm missing something please show me a definition in the NEC that this doesn't comply with.

 

[winnie]

Those can be uses as the controller (switch) but not as the disconnect. They depend on power to function and they do not clearly indicate if they are in the on or off position.

Modern GFCIs do not require power to open the connection. If you press the 'TEST' button with power removed, you will hear a significant mechanical click, and if power is restored to the line side of the GFCI the receptacles and load side will remain off.

(This is backwards from the original GFCI approach, were the 'TEST' button would create a low current residual current that the GFCI circuit would detect cause a trip. In many (most? all?) modern GFCIs the 'TEST' button mechanically causes a disconnect, and the circuit has a built in test feature that prevents the 'RESET' button from engaging if the unit is faulty. Not sure I like this approach, but that is the current design. I just tried this out on a GFCI I installed a couple of years ago, with the breaker 'off' the 'TEST' button would still open the receptacle.)

-Jon

 

[wwhitney]

Yes they do with lights. No light, no power.

That's not the same as a typical disconnect. No lights could mean an upstream disconnect (e.g. the breaker) is open, while the blank face GFCI is in fact in the closed position.

Looking at a modern GFCI receptacle, the difference between the closed state and the open state is very subtle: in the closed state, the RESET button is a hair recessed relative to the face, and the TEST button can be depressed (and if you depress it far enough, it will open). In the open state, the RESET button is a hair proud of the face, and the TEST button can not be depressed.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[SSDriver]

That's not the same as a typical disconnect. No lights could mean an upstream disconnect (e.g. the breaker) is open, while the blank face GFCI is in fact in the closed position.

Looking at a modern GFCI receptacle, the difference between the closed state and the open state is very subtle: in the closed state, the RESET button is a hair recessed relative to the face, and the TEST button can be depressed (and if you depress it far enough, it will open). In the open state, the RESET button is a hair proud of the face, and the TEST button can not be depressed.

Cheers, Wayne

Great, please show me where that is a requirement(other than your own preference)and where that would dis-allow the newer blank face gfci switches as a disconnect.
For certain equipment at 30 or 40' away I could see this being a concern. For a dishwasher most likely within 5' of the GFCI in a residence I don't see an issue.

 

[wwhitney]

Great, please show me where that is a requirement(other than your own preference)and where that would dis-allow the newer blank face gfci switches as a disconnect.

I wasn't expressing an opinion on that issue, just commenting on the particulars.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[jap]

Although it wouldn't be my first choice, by definition, I don't see anything that would prevent that type of device to serve as the disconnecting means.

As long as the internal control circuitry of the device is on the load side of the internal contacts that gets disconnected upon activation (which I'm sure it probably does ) it seems to meet the letter of the law.

JAP>

 

[wwhitney]

Well, there's the question of whether it complies with 422.35:

422.35 Switch and Circuit Breaker to Be Indicating. Switches and circuit breakers used as disconnecting means shall be of the indicating type.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Well, there's the question of whether it complies with 422.35:

422.35 Switch and Circuit Breaker to Be Indicating. Switches and circuit breakers used as disconnecting means shall be of the indicating type.

Cheers, Wayne

Wayne, I am not following. The gfci above has On and Off and says it is a motor controller and Switch. Are you saying it does not meet code. It certainly does seem to meet 422.35

 

[wwhitney]

Wayne, I am not following. The gfci above has On and Off and says it is a motor controller and Switch. Are you saying it does not meet code. It certainly does seem to meet 422.35

I take "indicating" to mean that you can tell by looking at it what state it is in, i.e. which button was pushed last. Like a single pole toggle switch is either up (on) or down (off). Is the blank face GFCI switch "indicating" in that sense? This gets to my earlier observations (on a GFCI receptacle, not a blank face), that the difference in state is very subtle.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[jap]

Looking at a handle doesn't actually tell you anything about the state of the contacts inside.

Not even a circuit breaker or an actual disconnect is "Indicating" as far as the actual state of the contacts unless you open a disconnect to verify they have actually opened, or, use a meter to clarify the contacts actually opened up on a breaker.

One can only assume that when the handle shows off or the handle is down that the contacts actually opened as they are supposed to.

JAP>

 

[curt swartz]

For those that say a blank face/dead front GFCI is indicating......
Is the GFCI in the picture on or off?
Sure if you are familiar with the particular device being use you can probably tell from how the button are sitting but the average person would have no idea.

 

[jap]

I think it's all in how much or how little one reads into the definition of a disconnecting means.

If you stop at the definition below, does it actually have to "indicate", or, is there more that needs considered for an appliance disconnecting means ?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I take "indicating" to mean that you can tell by looking at it what state it is in, i.e. which button was pushed last. Like a single pole toggle switch is either up (on) or down (off). Is the blank face GFCI switch "indicating" in that sense? This gets to my earlier observations (on a GFCI receptacle, not a blank face), that the difference in state is very subtle.

Cheers, Wayne

Up close you can read on or off. A rocker switch is hard to tell from a distance if it is up or down. Why do you think it must be so obvious. I think I will have to disagree with you on this one. IMO, the blank face gfci is indicating. "ON" and "Off" is indicating

Push button switches are the same. You push the top in and it is on, then push the bottom it is off. This is not something that will be used everyday so I don't see an issue.

 

[ramsy]

Some of the blank face GFCI have both TEST and OFF printed on the blank face GFCI. They also say they are a switch on them or the literature. The one pictured below even says its a motor controller and switch.

Is there some other advantage to this?

Blank-face reset buttons shall be readily accessible per 210.8.
If it can't go under sinks, behind cabinet doors, while cord & plug disconnects can per 422.16(B)(2)(7), what is the advantage?

If hard-wired DW can't avoid AFCI, per 210.12(A) for all "outlets & devices" installed in "Kitchens", what's the advantage?
Unless blank-face devices are not outlets, DW still requires both AFCI & GFCI per 210.8(D)

If trying to educate inspectors is usually an exercise in futility, why force a fight to prove blank-face devices are listed as legal disconnects?

Is there some other advantage I'm missing

 

[kwired]

Modern GFCIs do not require power to open the connection. If you press the 'TEST' button with power removed, you will hear a significant mechanical click, and if power is restored to the line side of the GFCI the receptacles and load side will remain off.

(This is backwards from the original GFCI approach, were the 'TEST' button would create a low current residual current that the GFCI circuit would detect cause a trip. In many (most? all?) modern GFCIs the 'TEST' button mechanically causes a disconnect, and the circuit has a built in test feature that prevents the 'RESET' button from engaging if the unit is faulty. Not sure I like this approach, but that is the current design. I just tried this out on a GFCI I installed a couple of years ago, with the breaker 'off' the 'TEST' button would still open the receptacle.)

-Jon

Not true with the P&S GFCI's I mostly use. You can not trip (open the circuit) unless the device is energized.

Can't close the circuit without it being energized either.

 

[LarryFine]

For those that say a blank face/dead front GFCI is indicating......
Is the GFCI in the picture on or off?

I'd say it's off for three reasons from least to most serious:

1. There are no (visible) wires attached.

2. The indicator light is off.

3. The reset button is out (farther).