Dishwashers and disposal 2014 code

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shortcircuit2 said:
Here is an installation of GFCI devices under a sink for a DP & DW...
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In my own opinion they are readily accessible but that is an AHJ call.

That aside if I was the homeowner I would be pissed off the electrician used up prime storage space just to make their job easier. I would have mounted them in the same location but up high out of the way.
 
iwire said:
In my own opinion they are readily accessible but that is an AHJ call.

That aside if I was the homeowner I would be pissed off the electrician used up prime storage space just to make their job easier. I would have mounted them in the same location but up high out of the way.
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But the disposer and plumbing takes up prime storage space as well:happyyes:

You know how many people I have heard wish they had drawers in the upper space of a sink base? They can't seem to realize the sink takes up that space:roll:
 
iwire said:
And this means what? The HO already lost some space so let's take up more?

Seriously I don't get you sometimes. :happysad:
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Ignoring the still debated readily accessible rule for GFCI's, which some will say the GFCI can't be under the sink at all, in the past I generally would put the receptacles on the back wall unless something made it more practical on a side wall. Probably would have been higher on the wall in most cases.

Most customers really don't seem to care as long as the appliances work and you did not mess up a fancy tile backsplash with something that could have been placed pretty much anywhere else. Sink cabinets are mechanical space and what is left over is just bonus storage to most customers.

You want a real pain - once had a cabinet builder that thought it would be clever to put drawers under a cooktop, and with such tight fit between top drawer and cooktop it was nearly impossible to connect the cooktop:(
 
at the time of final inspection, is there anything in the way of the 'in-the-cabinet' gfi? NO, because nobody lives there yet. so it is accessible. what is the problem? once you elect to pile crap in front of it, then you have issues perhaps. see the stuff piled in front of the panel in every restaurant or mini market.

i had an inspector a couple years back tell me i could not put the outlet for the dishwasher behind the dishwasher because it was not accessible. then he says to put the outlet under the sink, because it was accessible. therefor, ergo, and to-wit, any kind of outlet is accessible, gfi or not.

i will put the two circuits into two gang box, one for each appliance, but it's still going into the back of the cabinet in the wall, like always.

just had to check this thread to bone up more on afci protection. jeez it is a pita! did learn at least that the code was changed from outlet, to device, so it includes switches. wow. the added expense of all these breakers and now extra gfi's too. and for refrigerators as well? were they all cracked out when they said that? i am still leaving my frige unprotected (gfi wise), but if i get sited, i can move the gfi to behind the frige? really, that's accessible? right!
 
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bullheimer said:
at the time of final inspection, is there anything in the way of the 'in-the-cabinet' gfi? NO, because nobody lives there yet. so it is accessible. what is the problem? once you elect to pile crap in front of it, then you have issues perhaps. see the stuff piled in front of the panel in every restaurant or mini market.

i had an inspector a couple years back tell me i could not put the outlet for the dishwasher behind the dishwasher because it was not accessible. then he says to put the outlet under the sink, because it was accessible. therefor, ergo, and to-wit, any kind of outlet is accessible, gfi or not.

i will put the two circuits into two gang box, one for each appliance, but it's still going into the back of the cabinet in the wall, like always.

just had to check this thread to bone up more on afci protection. jeez it is a pita! did learn at least that the code was changed from outlet, to device, so it includes switches. wow. the added expense of all these breakers and now extra gfi's too. and for refrigerators as well? were they all cracked out when they said that? i am still leaving my frige unprotected (gfi wise), but if i get sited, i can move the gfi to behind the frige? really, that's accessible? right!
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Art 100 has a different definition for "accessible" and "readily accessible". It also has a requirement for both GFCI's and AFCI's to be installed in a "readily accessible" location. See 210.8 and 210.12 along with art 100 definitions of accessible and readily accessible.

ETA: I can understand some differences in interpretation for a GFCI located inside a cabinet and feel NEC needs to clarify this somehow, but A GFCI behind a dishwasher or behind a refirgerator is more clear IMO, they are both accessible but not readily accessible.
 
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Agreed, certainly neither one of those is readily accessible. my stupid fridge has wheels and i can't move it! dishwashers are generally screwed into the bottom of the kitchen counter tops. and why would anyone want their fridge or freezer gfi protected anyway? i have installed my gfi's under the sink. if and when it fails i'll get back to yaz. i am still mad at having to arc fault protect my d/w, disp and even countertop outlets, and oh yeah, microwave. :slaphead: i have a 1000 sq ft house and i still have to buy 9 afci breakers! i cheaped out and put two bedrooms on one breaker so i wouldn't have to buy two. i have done this before with 15A ckts, but i used 12ga this time as i had 14 outlets. At least i am only paying something like $38 each for them. I also quit buying sq.D homeline panels because their stupid breakers are so stinkin long and always seem to hit the service conductors. Even their brand new N bar breakers are the same length. they need to wise up.
 
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bullheimer said:
Agreed, certainly neither one of those is readily accessible. my stupid fridge has wheels and i can't move it! dishwashers are generally screwed into the bottom of the kitchen counter tops. and why would anyone want their fridge or freezer gfi protected anyway? i have installed my gfi's under the sink. if and when it fails i'll get back to yaz. i am still mad at having to arc fault protect my d/w, disp and even countertop outlets, and oh yeah, microwave. :slaphead: i have a 1000 sq ft house and i still have to buy 9 afci breakers! i cheaped out and put two bedrooms on one breaker so i wouldn't have to buy two. i have done this before with 15A ckts, but i used 12ga this time as i had 14 outlets. At least i am only paying something like $38 each for them. I also quit buying sq.D homeline panels because their stupid breakers are so stinkin long and always seem to hit the service conductors. Even their brand new N bar breakers are the same length. they need to wise up.
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I'm still mad we have to AFCI protect anything - not because I'm against the intention of what AFCI is supposed to do but because I have not yet been convinced they do what they say they will do.

GFCI is a proven technology that saves lives. Why would one GFCI protect a refrigerator or freezer? If you could assure the equipment grounding conductor was in good condition I don't feel it would be necessary. I have had many service calls with tripping GFCI's for refrigerators. It is a nuisance to have one trip from transients that sometimes occur say during a thunderstorm, but outside of that they generally are tripping because of a real malfunction of equipment in the refrigerator.

Now throw in a situation of a basement or garage and the fact they used to let you exempt GFCI for a "dedicated outlet". I have had a few of those cases where the appliance would shock people when they touched it. Every time I've seen this it was either an old unit with no EGC in the cord or a situation where the EGC pin of the cord had been missing.

They make GFCI receptacles with an audible alarm that sounds when the unit is tripped. They are great for those garage and basement freezers that can go for days with no one noticing they are tripped. One drawback is they only sound when the unit itself is tripped, if power is lost for other reasons they will not sound. There are other alarm devices available though that would sound even if power is lost.

Is someone being electrocuted worth less then a freezer full of thawed food?


The Square D panels and the issue with service conductors interfering with an AFCI breaker - All Square D indoor loadcenters (outside of the 6-8 space and smaller with horizontal bus) can be inverted for top/bottom feed, and no real need for service conductors to pass from one end to the other. I do wish they would design the 3R loadcenters so the interior could be inverted for bottom feeding though.
 
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