Do Hard Wired 240V Boat Lift Motors require a GFCI breaker?

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davedottcom said:
Hmmm....but, but...

IMO the NEC is not saying ALL 240V boat hoists have "outlets" or they would have no reason to specifically mention the ones that do have outlets.
Can anyone explain why they specifically mention the word "outlets" if they ALL have outlets? I'm having a hard time understanding why they would even mention the word outlets in the first place!
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It does clearly say that all boat hoist outlets 240V or less.....

As opposed to 250V hoists I suppose. You are way overthinking this. If this is in an effort to save a few bucks on a GFI breaker or something, I sincerely and strongly encourage you to provide GFI protection for any and every circuit near the water. Even shore power in almost every case.
 
LOL! Ohhhhhh...Ok, I see what you are saying now. I'm still not convinced it's what their intent was though.

Does anyone understand WHY they would require the junction-box "outlet" to have GFCI protection instead of simply requiring the hoist/motor to have GFCI protection?
Can anyone give me an example of why?




david luchini said:
The OUTLET is what requires the GFCI protection, per 210.8(C). How could they tell you that without using the word OUTLET?
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Not at all, I honestly just never thought a hard-wired motor had an outlet. So...I'm trying to understand if this is the actual intent of the NEC or if it's one of those weird grey areas that get all twisted around by a poor choice of wording. I'm here to learn not save money.


luckylerado said:
If this is in an effort to save a few bucks on a GFI breaker or something, I sincerely and strongly encourage you to provide GFI protection for any and every circuit near the water. Even shore power in almost every case.
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luckylerado said:
At Lake of the Ozarks, where residential docks are the norm, the area authorities have expanded the NEC on a local level to include Article 554 for residential docks. I have included links for your reading pleasure. We have had several electrocution deaths due to poor wiring and inadequate protection and grounding.

Please error on the side of safety and provide GFCI protection, weather at the 100mA personnel level on the service side per 555 or best practice, re-tap the motor to 120 and provide a GFCI recept. Especially on fresh water. The human body tends to conduct fault currents much better than fresh water so if a voltage gradient is present it prefers to travel through your body rather than the water that you are swimming in.

One little kid is electrocuted to death in your area and your will quickly realize that everything is better GFCI protected even if it causes the occasional nuisance tripping.

There is no good reason Not to apply 555 to residential docks. NFPA is foolish not to address the issue.


https://www.ameren.com/-/media/miss...eozarks/DockElectricalInstallRequirements.pdf

http://www.villageoffourseasons.com/19Inspection/Article 554, 2011 NEC Residential Docks.pdf
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Note: the GFCI as required for residential boat lifts is a 6ma device not a 100ma device.
The use of 30 -- 100ma device in 555 is to detect current leakage. A greater than 6ma GFE is not enough to prevent injury or death.
 
Ahhhh! Sorry, I missed this reply somehow! THAT is the kind of explanation I was looking for!

Thanks and please disregard my last few posts!!!

Thanks guys!

Dave




luckylerado said:
from 14' handbook

210.8 (C) Boat Hoists. GFCI protection shall be provided for outlets
not exceeding 240 volts that supply boat hoists installed in dwelling
unit locations.

The proximity of this type of equipment to water and the wet or
damp environment that is typical where boat hoists are used is
the reason for this GFCI requirement. Documented cases of electrocutions
associated with the use of boat hoists compiled by the
U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission substantiated the need
for this requirement. The GFCI requirement applies only to dwelling
unit locations and to boat hoists supplied by 15- or 20-A
branch circuits rated 240 V or less. It is important to note that it
applies to all outlets, not just to receptacle outlets. Therefore, both
cord-and-plug-connected and hard-wired boat hoists are required
to be GFCI protected.
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I think one would be hard pressed to determine where the actual "Outlet" is if your not talking about a receptacle outlet.

The definition of outlet says the point where "Current" is taken to supply utilization equipment, there is no current until the motor is running, the motor wont run until the contacts on the switch, contactor or starter closes, so to me that is the point that decides when you have current or not, not the j-box, so to me the Controller would need to be GFI Protected and the j-box is simply a place that the wires are spliced.

JAP>
 
davedottcom said:
Not at all, I honestly just never thought a hard-wired motor had an outlet. So...I'm trying to understand if this is the actual intent of the NEC or if it's one of those weird grey areas that get all twisted around by a poor choice of wording. I'm here to learn not save money.
Click to expand...

Go read the definition of an "outlet". Stop thinking of it as a receptacle.
 
And for anyone who still wonders why "outlet" is mentioned, the answer is that the entire circuit does not need protection, especially if it feeds other loads.
The GFCI can be anywhere up to and including the location of the outlet, but cannot be only inside the lift itself.
 
jap said:
I think one would be hard pressed to determine where the actual "Outlet" is if your not talking about a receptacle outlet.

The definition of outlet says the point where "Current" is taken to supply utilization equipment, there is no current until the motor is running, the motor wont run until the contacts on the switch, contactor or starter closes, so to me that is the point that decides when you have current or not, not the j-box, so to me the Controller would need to be GFI Protected and the j-box is simply a place that the wires are spliced.

JAP>
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It was taken from the panel box and run to the dock. Therefore GFI is required at the panel.
 
cpinetree said:
In the area of south west Florida we are, it is pretty simple.

Any wire that extends beyond the seawall must be GFI protected, with the exception of shore power receptacles.

The protection has to be prior to the seawall. So you can not feed a GFI receptacle on a piling with a standard breaker, the GFI protection must be prior to the seawall.
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An when you step over the seawall in some parts of SW Florida you better have your Longshoreman's workers comp insurance up to date!

Please don't shoot the messanger!!!
 
cpinetree said:
In the area of south west Florida we are, it is pretty simple.

Any wire that extends beyond the seawall must be GFI protected, with the exception of shore power receptacles.

The protection has to be prior to the seawall. So you can not feed a GFI receptacle on a piling with a standard breaker, the GFI protection must be prior to the seawall.
Click to expand...

Shore power is required in 2014. Florida is currently under 2008. Will move to 2011 in July. Backwards like the voting system. Good ol' boy politics.
 
davedottcom said:
Hmmm....but, but...

IMO the NEC is not saying ALL 240V boat hoists have "outlets" or they would have no reason to specifically mention the ones that do have outlets.
Can anyone explain why they specifically mention the word "outlets" if they ALL have outlets? I'm having a hard time understanding why they would even mention the word outlets in the first place!
Click to expand...

Cavie said:
Go read the definition of an "outlet". Stop thinking of it as a receptacle.
Click to expand...

If there is a load served there is an "outlet". Exact location of that outlet can be debatable sometimes, when you have a "receptacle outlet" that location is more clear. Hard wired appliances - the outlet is generally at the point of transition from premises wiring to appliance wiring - would most likely be that point on a hard wired boat hoist.
 
Cavie said:
It was taken from the panel box and run to the dock. Therefore GFI is required at the panel.
Click to expand...

Not that I disagree but if "it" means the point at which current is taken, as is in reference to the point of the outlet location, I think that would be somewhat debatable.

Jap>
 
jap said:
Not that I disagree but if "it" means the point at which current is taken, as is in reference to the point of the outlet location, I think that would be somewhat debatable.

Jap>
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210.8(C) says "GFCI protection shall be provided for outlets not exceeding 240 volts that supply boat hoists installed in dwelling unit locations."

protection for the "outlet" to me means the GFCI can be anywhere ahead of the outlet, but not after the outlet. Blank face GFCI device right next to the boat hoist is still ahead of the outlet, so is a breaker in a panel supplying the branch circuit from a remote location. One could even have a GFCI breaker supplying a feeder to a panel and then standard breaker supplying the boat hoist and 210.8(C) is still met.
 
Cavie said:
An when you step over the seawall in some parts of SW Florida you better have your Longshoreman's workers comp insurance up to date!

Please don't shoot the messanger!!!
Click to expand...

Yup, Auditor loves to see dock work without the longshoreman insurance:happyno:
 
kwired said:
210.8(C) says "GFCI protection shall be provided for outlets not exceeding 240 volts that supply boat hoists installed in dwelling unit locations."

protection for the "outlet" to me means the GFCI can be anywhere ahead of the outlet, but not after the outlet. Blank face GFCI device right next to the boat hoist is still ahead of the outlet, so is a breaker in a panel supplying the branch circuit from a remote location. One could even have a GFCI breaker supplying a feeder to a panel and then standard breaker supplying the boat hoist and 210.8(C) is still met.
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That's my whole point.

Jap>
 
Art 210.8C
Boat hoists. GFCI protection shall be provided for outlets not exceeding 240 volts that supply boat hoists installed in dwelling unit location.

Definitions
Dwelling unit. A single unit, providing complete and independent living facility for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and sanitation.

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
 
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