steve holt
Member
- Location
- Hawaii
Do outlets located within a base cabinet count towards the number required for wall spacing? I could have sworn the NEC said they do not, but I cant find anything.
Do outlets within cabinets
- Thread starter steve holt
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Connecticut
- Occupation
- Engineer
See 210.52(3)
steve holt
Member
- Location
- Hawaii
So if the outlet is located in the wall behind the cabinet, and the cabinet is cut out to access the outlet it is leagal because its within 18" of the wall?
- Location
- Connecticut
- Occupation
- Engineer
210.53(3) says that receptacle outlets in cabinets are not part of the required wall receptacle outlets.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
It is perfectly fine to install a receptacle inside a cabinet but if there are doors then it would not count as the required receptacles. I have heard arguments that if the cabinet was built such that there is no wall space then no receptacle is required.
This came up years ago and a few of the code panel members stated that a room with nothing in it but bookshelves would not require a receptacle since there was no wall space.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
I take it you mean built-in, not free-standing, which begs more questions:
Is there a requirement to not block existing receptacles with free-standing bookcases?
Must existing receptacles either be made accessible or the circuit abandoned if you build-in bookcases?
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Yes built in.
No, they cannot stop you from placing a bookcase in front of a receptacle. Supposedly afci or gfci receptacles are supposed to be readily accessible so it would be a violation to put bookshelves or cabinets in front of them. Question is who will enforce it????
IMO, if you build in the bookcases then I would just made them accessible as that is easier in my opinion then trying to abandon them. Also I would never not have receptacles in a room even if there were cabinets everywhere. We used to install them in the toe space of the cabinets.
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
WA has a rule if a bookcase for example, blocks a required receptacle, then an additional receptacle must be added elsewhere
acin
Senior Member
- Location
- pacific grove california
- Occupation
- general building contractor est.1984 . C 10 elec. lic.as of 8 / 7/ 2020
Floor receptacles
steve holt
Member
- Location
- Hawaii
Ok now I see it.
210.52(3) ...in addition to any receptacle that is: Located within cabinets or cupboards.
Thank you very much!
CrazyWabbit
Member
- Location
- Fort Worth TX
- Occupation
- Engr
I learned something. question, is there a requirement for receptacle spacing around a sink? and if so would that override the receptacle spacing requirement? What is the minimum spacing from a sink with a gfci and without? i'm thinking a utility sink in a garage.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
There is no requirement for a minimum distance to a sink. The receptacle can be directly over the sink but certainly a bad placement IMO.
- Location
- Tennessee NEC:2017
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrician
The rule for sinks is, if there is a receptacle within 6' of a sink, then it has to be GFCI protected.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
IMO a built in bookcase doesn't block a required receptacle.
If a room has nothing but book case and doorways on all the walls I think is possible there is no "required" receptacles in that room.
Floor receptacles? You put them within 18" of what? There is no wall requiring any receptacles. Any receptacles in said room are in addition of minimum required which is zero.
I'm sure this shakes many inspector's heads though.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
In addition to what Dennis said there is no spacing requirements in a garage plus in a garage all receptacles would require GFCI protection anyway.
gadfly56
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
My father stacked ordinary bookshelves and secured them to the living room wall on one side. He cut out the back of the bookshelves anywhere they wound up in front of a receptacle. Problem solved. Nothing says you can't put a book in front of a receptacle.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
I agree.
In new construction were a permanent book case was on the plans, I have never been required to place a receptacle within the book case to comply with 210.52. That don't mean sometimes I haven't placed receptacles within the book case, but 210.52 didn't kick in until you get outside the ends of the book case. Sort of no different than if you had kitchen cabinets with no doors on them, but with no counter top which would also kick in parts of 210.52.
CrazyWabbit
Member
- Location
- Fort Worth TX
- Occupation
- Engr
is a gfci required for a 240v receptacle?
the one in my garages isn't!!! i don't think it would be possible as current could be equal on both legs or some could be returning on neutral.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
If you are on 2020 NEC, yes.
Multiwire GFCI's still can monitor neutral conductors. Basically their principle of operation is sort of like clamping an ammeter around all the circuit conductors, if all the current going out is balanced with all the current coming back (even if coming back on more than one conductor) the net reading is zero. They are sensitive enough that if the balance is off by more than 4-6 mA they will initiate the trip sequence. There are three pole GFCI's with neutral also, and are also some places where they are required in 2017 as well as 2020.
CrazyWabbit
Member
- Location
- Fort Worth TX
- Occupation
- Engr
they do exist and i think are required after 2007 (perhaps or later). out of stock everywhere for ge panels...
- Status