Do you agree/disagree ??

[mivey]

That's it George. If you can stretch the use of the word "contain" to mean simply supported than you can see it from JW's view point. IMO the definition of contain would not include sufficient language to imply a fixture strap "contains" the fixture. To me the use is more like "enclose" than "support" and that is why I think the fixture strap should not me included.........BESIDE the common sense argument that the strap is not IN the box so it can't feasibly be counted as FILLING the box. :roll:

con?tain (k

n-t

n

)tr.v. con?tained, con?tain?ing, con?tains 1. a. To have within; hold.

Hear hear.

 

[M. D.]

For educational purposes only ,... Mike you may want to take a peek at example 2 ,.. though I'm not sure your mind is open on this ... This is how I've been taught and how it reads to me ... I hope your students are not afraid to speak out in your class... and likewise I hope you are not afraid to listen .

http://ecmweb.com/images/archive/0800calcs.pdf

 

[M. D.]

the last graphic had a typo as a 3"x 1/2" pan box does not have 8 cu in cap...the must have meant 1 1/2??

Having said that,.. the point is,. that in this one and the one from the above link the fixture bar is not counted toward conductor fill..

 

[fishin' electrician]

my take...

my take...

314.16(B) tells me how to calculate the number of conductors for each circumstance so that I don't violate 314.16. If it's not in the box, it doesn't get calculated.

314.16 Number of conductors in Outlet, Device, and Junction Boxes and Conduit Bodies.

314.16(B)(1) Conductor Fill. The conductors are in the box.
314.16(B)(2) Clamp Fill. The clamps are in the box.
314.16(B)(3) Support Fittings Fill. The fittings are in the box.
314.16(B)(4) Device or Equipment Fill. The yoke or strap is not in the box, the device or equipment is.

 

[mivey]

314.16(B) tells me how to calculate the number of conductors for each circumstance so that I don't violate 314.16. If it's not in the box, it doesn't get calculated.

314.16 Number of conductors in Outlet, Device, and Junction Boxes and Conduit Bodies.

314.16(B)(1) Conductor Fill. The conductors are in the box.
314.16(B)(2) Clamp Fill. The clamps are in the box.
314.16(B)(3) Support Fittings Fill. The fittings are in the box.
314.16(B)(4) Device or Equipment Fill. The yoke or strap is not in the box, the device or equipment is.

I have overlooked that. Another nail in Mike's coffin.

But I suspect unless someone shoots a silver nail, he will rise to fight the word "in". :grin:

 

[jwelectric]

Boy the lot of you are trying very hard to bounce all around and still no one has addressed the question of where the requirement that the device or equipment is required to be inside the box in order to be counted. There is not even a requirement to count the device or the equipment but the requirement addresses the strap or yoke.

As far as the definition of contain outlined here I do believe the word hold is at the end of that definition. Yes the strap holds the light does it not?

My question is a real simple question that anyone can answer if they would just take a short minute and relax and answer. Where in the NEC does it make the statement that the strap or yoke or anything contained, held, or supported by that strap or yoke is required to be inside the box in order to be counted as conductor fill?

Maybe a hint would help someone to find the answer. The word ?fill? or ?contain? does not constitute a requirement that anything be inside the box.

As to Mike?s slide on a 3.5 inch pancake box, ?if? he is incorrect I can promise you that it wouldn?t be the first mistake he ever made.

As far as my classes are concerned please understand that the comments I make here do not reflect any comment I make in the classroom. The classroom is a classroom this place is a playroom for me. Oops, bet it gets locked now.

A little history for anyone interested in such stuff. The word ?equipment? was added to the 1993 code cycle in 370-16 from what was in 370-6 of the 1990 code cycle.
Can anyone tell us what the proposal said that constituted this change?

 

[iwire]

Boy the lot of you are trying very hard to bounce all around and still no one has addressed the question of where the requirement that the device or equipment is required to be inside the box in order to be counted.

Mike, no one is dancing around anything.

We are telling you that the strap must contain a device or equipment before the last part of the first sentence applies.

Just a heads up, get your final points in as we are thinking about closing this thread as noting new is being added.

My question is a real simple question that anyone can answer if they would just take a short minute and relax and answer. Where in the NEC does it make the statement that the strap or yoke or anything contained, held, or supported by that strap or yoke is required to be inside the box in order to be counted as conduct as fill?

I agree, It does not state what is obvious to all but you.

But that is not what we have pointed out. We have pointed out that the section you have posted so many times requires the yoke or strap to contain a divice or equipment before 'equipment supported by the strap' can be applied.

 

[electricmanscott]

My final point which will add NOTHING to this. Is a "cubic" inch the same thing as a "cubit" inch?

 

[mivey]

Just a heads up, get your final points in as we are thinking about closing this thread as noting new is being added.

Might I request that you hold for a little bit and let's see if there are any ROPs that might bring in something new?

Add: if someone already has this info, please post it and save me a search.

 

[infinity]

I'm still waiting for substantiation that the thing holding the fixture to the box is actually a strap or a yoke.:roll:

 

[jwelectric]

We are telling you that the strap must contain a device or equipment before the last part of the first sentence applies.

As defined by Article 100 equipment is very inclusive. Such items such as material, fittings, devices, appliances, luminaires, apparatus, and machinery are equipment and if the strap is holding (containing) any of these, as the section is worded, I just don’t see how anyone would win against a hard nosed inspector. There is no verbiage that can be used to defend not counting the strap as a double volume.

I agree, It does not state what is obvious to all but you.

Now you are making an assumption that I believe something that I have as yet expressed any thought about. All I have done is ask a question that you have finally answered. There is no verbiage that could be used to defend not counting the strap.

But that is not what we have pointed out. We have pointed out that the section you have posted so many times requires the yoke or strap to contain a divice or equipment before 'equipment supported by the strap' can be applied.

Once again with a little reading with an open mind there is not a requirement that the device or equipment be contained within the confines of the strap or yoke as with a switch or receptacle. It is only required to hold (contain means hold as has been pointed out) the device or equipment as is outlined in 314.16(B)(4).

Just a heads up, get your final points in as we are thinking about closing this thread as noting new is being added

I have no problems with the thread being closed. This something that I have discussed many times with minds that in my opinion far out reach those found here. Just as here there are several different out looks about this section and I have learned much. Should someone find the proposal from 1993 I think we all could learn a lot.

Thank you all for what I call FUN! I truly hope that I have not offended anyone in any way and if I have please accept my apologies. I now bid you all a good day.

Edited to add:
I just made the 150th post to this thread. See I never get involved in an easy answer.

 

[iwire]

As defined by Article 100 equipment is very inclusive. Such items such as material, fittings, devices, appliances, luminaires, apparatus, and machinery are equipment and if the strap is holding (containing) any of these, as the section is worded, I just don?t see how anyone would win against a hard nosed inspector. There is no verbiage that can be used to defend not counting the strap as a double volume.

Mike do you even read the posts?

None of us have said a fixture is not 'equipment' what we are saying, and what matters is a fixture is not contained by the strap. The fixture and or equipment may well be supported by the strap but it is not contained in the strap.

It is really very clear.

Thank you all for what I call FUN! I truly hope that I have not offended anyone in any way and if I have please accept my apologies. I now bid you all a good day.

I for one have not found this fun in the least, I have found it terribly sad that you are so sure of yourself you treat all that have responded to this thread as somehow beneath your level.

We all believe our views are opinions, you seem to feel if it comes from your keyboard it is a fact not to be questioned.

I just made the 150th post to this thread. See I never get involved in an easy answer.

That is nothing to be proud of in this case, any fool can be stubborn as a mule so when a knowledge person like yourself falls into that role it is really too bad.

As I am a participant in this thread I will leave it to another mod to determine it's fate.

 

[mivey]

Boy, that was painful and I did not go very far back. Searching through ROPs is no fun if you are in a hurry and are trying to do it on-line. The panels did discuss "occupying the volume" as well as boxes with "enclosed" devices and equipment and volumes that accommodate the rearward projection of equipment. They seem concerned with stuff that is internal to the volume under consideration.

I see that it would take more time and energy than I have now to construct a lucid response based on information gleaned from ROP text.

PS: I'm done.

 

[jwelectric]

None of us have said a fixture is not 'equipment' what we are saying, and what matters is a fixture is not contained by the strap. The fixture and or equipment may well be supported by the strap but it is not contained in the strap.

All that is left for one to do is define contained

Main Entry: con?tain
Pronunciation: \kən-ˈtān\
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English conteinen, from Anglo-French cunteign-, cuntyen-, stem of cuntenir, from Latin continēre to hold together, hold in, contain, from com- + tenēre to hold ? more at thin
Date: 14th century
transitive verb 1 : to keep within limits: as a : restrain, control <could hardly contain her enthusiasm> b : check, halt <contain the spread of a deadly disease> c : to follow successfully a policy of containment toward <efforts to contain Communism> d : to prevent (as an enemy or opponent) from advancing or from making a successful attack
2 a : to have within : hold b : comprise, include <the bill contains several new clauses>
3 a : to be divisible by usually without a remainder b : enclose, bound

Surely we are not so narrow minded that we can only think of the word contain as the jug contains milk. We can see that a receptacle or switch is not inside the yoke but is being held by the yoke. If anything the yoke is on the inside of some receptacles which with the train of though of some here it would be the receptacle that is containing the yoke.

As outlined in this section of the code it simply means to hold. The yoke holds or contains the receptacle. The strap holds or contains the fixture. The nail holds or contains the box in the wall. The fence keeps the cows contained in the pasture. Ever see a cow that was part of a fence?
Just what is the containment of a deadly disease being put into?
Just what is communism being put into?
What was she putting her enthusiasm into?
Just what is the enemy being put into?
Each and every one of these could have the word contain replaced with the word hold.

She could hardly hold her enthusiasm
The deadly disease was held from spreading
Communism was held at bay
The enemy was held back and kept from advancing.

Just as you have said there is no requirement that anything including the strap or yoke to be inside the box. It is not what the yoke or strap is containing that counts but the yoke or strap itself that counts as a double volume. It holds the device or equipment in place or it contains the device or equipment if you prefer.

 

[M. D.]

I thought you were done:-?:roll:

 

[roger]

This thread is closed.

Roger