Do you always have to have a neu. In a switch box? This is a hospital.

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I guess it depends on what you think is dumb about that section.

Putting commonly used 5-15 receptacles on a dimmer in just about any situation IMO is not a good idea, and probably can introduce hazards to life or property in many instances.

Being able to dim something that is connected via cord and plug, where flexible cord is otherwise permitted, however is not that much risk as long as it is not very easy to plug things into the receptacle that were not intended to be run through the dimmer.
 
It is not such a silly requirement, IMO with all the occupancy sensors that are being used in todays buildings. Residential it is not used as much but the rule was there to avoid making connections using the equipment grounding conductor where the neutral was needed.
I think the solution should have been red tags on all devices that used the EGC as the grounded conductor. Yes, I know that these were listed products, and the listing permitted using the EGC as the grounded conductor. However the listing does not change the code rules, and they should have all been red tagged at the time of installation. The NFPA should not have caved to the demands of UL.
 
I guess it depends on what you think is dumb about that section.

Putting commonly used 5-15 receptacles on a dimmer in just about any situation IMO is not a good idea, and probably can introduce hazards to life or property in many instances.

Being able to dim something that is connected via cord and plug, where flexible cord is otherwise permitted, however is not that much risk as long as it is not very easy to plug things into the receptacle that were not intended to be run through the dimmer.


But how do you find the correct outlets for that. The NEC isn't specific?
 
Those of us that think this is a case of NEC overstepping into design requirements do not disagree that it may be a good idea, but still is a design issue and not a safety issue. It only becomes a safety issue when the future installer doesn't provide the proper conductor for the device installed.

Over the years the NEC has added several of these "what if down the road ..." kind of requirements. Well what if down the road we need 1200 amps supply instead of 150? Maybe all services should be at least capable of handling 1200 amps no matter what the initial load may be, I know I wouldn't mind the average profit from installing a new service if that were the rules, so maybe I should put in a proposal for this :cool:

But that's just it, the future installer is violating code. How could adding a code force someone to follow other codes when he already has a disregard for them?
 
Logically speaking

Logically speaking

Would it be wiser to plan on something that will most logically be needed down the road or just blindly trust that every electrician will pull a neutral instead of using the EGC? And that every DIYer will know that there needs to be a Neutral installed and that the ECG is not a neutral.

Personally better safe then having to say, yep I installed it without the Neutral and gosh, I'm so sorry about that now Your Honor. :)
 
But how do you find the correct outlets for that. The NEC isn't specific?
I kind of recall from the CEU class I attended late last winter, which the content was primarily 2014 NEC changes, seeing a slide in the presentation that showed a receptacle that is the correct one, but can't recall any of the details about it. Think the slide show was produced by IAEI if that helps any. I did find this though I can see it is possible that there may be different configuration for different manufacturers for such devices.

But that's just it, the future installer is violating code. How could adding a code force someone to follow other codes when he already has a disregard for them?

Would it be wiser to plan on something that will most logically be needed down the road or just blindly trust that every electrician will pull a neutral instead of using the EGC? And that every DIYer will know that there needs to be a Neutral installed and that the ECG is not a neutral.

Personally better safe then having to say, yep I installed it without the Neutral and gosh, I'm so sorry about that now Your Honor. :)
You think the guys that installed knob and tube for a living ever imagined some of the things we have today and thought maybe they should install things that help account for what we have today? Again like I said earlier, maybe all services should have at least 1200 amps capacity - just in case it is ever needed. Those guys installing K &T probably never imagined 200 amp supply would ever be needed - at least not in a dwelling.

But I do think the neutral at the switch box rule is partly because there is a good possibility of needing that in the somewhat near future in a lot of common locations.
 
But I do think the neutral at the switch box rule is partly because there is a good possibility of needing that in the somewhat near future in a lot of common locations.

It is my understanding that rule is in the NEC only because UL was allowing devices to use the grounding conductor as a circuit conductor.

The NFPA was trying to get UL to change that practice and UL would not do that unless the NFPA added the rule requiring neutrals at the boxes.:(

But if you really look at it the NFPA made plenty of holes in the section so in many cases you can still avoid it.
 
Would it be wiser to plan on something that will most logically be needed down the road or just blindly trust that every electrician will pull a neutral instead of using the EGC? And that every DIYer will know that there needs to be a Neutral installed and that the ECG is not a neutral.

Personally better safe then having to say, yep I installed it without the Neutral and gosh, I'm so sorry about that now Your Honor. :)

The world must be a scary place for you. How can you imply you'd ever find yourself in litigation for not pulling s neutral when it's not actually required by the NEC?
 
It is my understanding that rule is in the NEC only because UL was allowing devices to use the grounding conductor as a circuit conductor.

The NFPA was trying to get UL to change that practice and UL would not do that unless the NFPA added the rule requiring neutrals at the boxes.:(

But if you really look at it the NFPA made plenty of holes in the section so in many cases you can still avoid it.
They made the holes in the section just so we could disagree on what is allowed and what isn't, though I think they cleaned it up a little in 2014, still pushes being design requirement instead of safety requirement though.
 
Its not a silly rule at all. When a motion detector is installed where there is no neutral then the motion sensor operates from line to ground and puts about 5 mA on the building EGC. Image a building full of motion detectors and you could have 100 mA on the EGC, a possible shock hazard.

I believe the approved GF current was .5 mA.
 
I believe the approved GF current was .5 mA.
Yes, it was 0.5mA or less per device, but no one working on an EGC expects it to have current, and the shock from even 0.5mA could cause a reaction that in turn causes an injury, for example falling off a ladder.
UL should have never permitted the EGC to be used as a grounded conductor.
 
I kind of recall from the CEU class I attended late last winter, which the content was primarily 2014 NEC changes, seeing a slide in the presentation that showed a receptacle that is the correct one, but can't recall any of the details about it. Think the slide show was produced by IAEI if that helps any. I did find this though I can see it is possible that there may be different configuration for different manufacturers for such devices.

Thanks! So I need to cut off all the good plugs on my lamps to install a dimmer cord cap? What if I want to plug my dimmable lamp into a regular outlet? What if I move in to a new house and always think "geee I wonder what that strange outlet does", "I never liked the fact this room has no lights" "I wonder what this round knob is for" What if I need to change all my cord caps as a HO but don't know how to do I right? What if I latter want to plug my dimmable lamps into a regular outlet?

Code changes that break me into pieces. How is trying to solve one superficial problem with several larger ones supposed to be beneficial?

The fact NEC requires disconnects in luminaires shows where the code is headed. Disconnects don't prevent a building from burning down, they are being required because people put profit and ignorance before life. It is common sense that if you are changing a 277 volt ballast you either PPE or disconnect the power via tag out lock out or similar safety measure. If we had to consider every idiot who was being aggressively stupid we might as well just have the NEC bane electricity.

As Iwire so eloquently put it "If idiots were the only thing we had to consider working on power systems we would have to shut down the entire power grid because idiots can screw up a 2 wire lamp cord" :lol:
 
Yes, it was 0.5mA or less per device, but no one working on an EGC expects it to have current, and the shock from even 0.5mA could cause a reaction that in turn causes an injury, for example falling off a ladder.
UL should have never permitted the EGC to be used as a grounded conductor.

In an AC system, the EGC will _always_ carry some current.

From looking around the web, I believe that the capacitance of romex is something like 10-20pF per foot wire-wire. Roll out 100 feet of romex, connect the black wire to a 120V hot, the white wire to the neutral, and connect a meter between the bare wire and the neutral, and you will measure 'phantom' voltage. Connect a sensitive current meter and you should see something on the order of 50 micro-amps.

I would be interested in seeing the true history of the UL requirements, but my _guess_ is that the UL standard included a maximum allowed _leakage_ (via capacitance, insulation conductivity, etc). At the time the standard was created a rather large (by today's expectations) current would flow _through_ the insulation, so to permit devices to actually be manufacturable there had to be a significant amount of leakage permitted. Guessing further, as insulation systems evolved and power requirements for things such as timers dropped, eventually we reached the point where some bright engineer said 'I could run this sensor on the 'allowed leakage' for a switch, and thus meet the applicable standards.'

Of course, this is a change between _unintentional_ current allowed to pass to the EGC, and _intentional_ use of the EGC to carry small currents. But at some point this becomes a 'religious' argument, not a true safety argument.

There _will_ always be some current on the EGC. Does it really make a safety difference if you have 50uA of current on an EGC because of insulation leakage, or the same 50 uA because of intentional use of the EGC to power a device, or the same 50uA because of capacitive coupling from hot to bare?

IMHO a more realistic approach would have been for the limits of permitted intentional current on the EGC should have been reduced as technology improved and the expected unintentional current went down.

-Jon
 
It is common sense that if you are changing a 277 volt ballast you either PPE or disconnect the power via tag out lock out or similar safety measure.

Putting PPE on does not allow us to work on things hot just because we want to.

You must be able to justify the reason hot work is the safer than shutting things down.
 
IMHO a more realistic approach would have been for the limits of permitted intentional current on the EGC should have been reduced as technology improved and the expected unintentional current went down.

IMO A safety conductor should never be used as a circuit conductor.
 
How could I imaging being in litigation?

How could I imaging being in litigation?

First of all my attorneys, Do We Cheatem & How, have taken the position on this topic that they will accept both defendants and plaintiffs as they are a for profit amoral center.

As in all other situations the deepest pockets get hit first. A DIY person would have to find someone to blame as it certainly could not be his/her fault

Oh and by the way, I am not paranoid even though I have noticed a higher number of black helicopters overhead lately. :)

Seriously, though, give the current litigious state of mind, it's not a hard stretch of the imagination to make.
 
In an AC system, the EGC will _always_ carry some current.

From looking around the web, I believe that the capacitance of romex is something like 10-20pF per foot wire-wire. Roll out 100 feet of romex, connect the black wire to a 120V hot, the white wire to the neutral, and connect a meter between the bare wire and the neutral, and you will measure 'phantom' voltage. Connect a sensitive current meter and you should see something on the order of 50 micro-amps. ...
-Jon

But that is 1/10th of the current that UL permitted to be on the EGC for the electronic switching devices.
 
I think more and more switches will need the neutral wire.
Yesterday I installed two fan speed controls that needed a neutral.
IMO more switches will be little computers soon. They will be able to do more things, like motion sensors, occupancy sensors, timers, light sensors and who knows what they will think of next. Wifi switches? The days of the old on/off switch are numbered.
Thanks
Mike
 
Putting PPE on does not allow us to work on things hot just because we want to.

You must be able to justify the reason hot work is the safer than shutting things down.
On top of that it is not the NEC that requires the PPE.

I have mixed feelings on the luminaire disconnect rule, it kind of is bringing design issues into NEC, but at same time it hopefully will prevent some electrocutions. Not every person servicing a luminaire is required to follow 70E either.
 
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