peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Ungrounded, obviously.
Does Anything Look Odd with this Service?
- Thread starter Pierre C Belarge
- Start date
- Status
Ungrounded, obviously.
quogueelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- new york
This is what we call in the trade the lowest bidders work. What is it supposed to look like??
Aluminum ?
360Youth
Senior Member
- Location
- Newport, NC
Opening on bottom right corner not sealed?
tomspark1
Member
- Location
- Central Florida
I really can't see a yellow in that conduit. It looks like they forgot to pull grounded conductors so they used the one yellow and reindentified it...the old "make it work and run away" attitude. With no bonding jumper this is scary stuff.
Pierre C Belarge
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
More Details Regarding this Service
More Details Regarding this Service
(the grounded conductor is installed in one of the multiple raceways)
The service is a 480Y/277Volt, 3 phase - 2000A service.
Most of the building loads are 3phase, not requiring a grounded conductor.
The engineer who designed this had 1 grounded conductor on the prints, to supply the GFPE unit that protects the service as per 230.95.
I had issues with this setup, and we had a meeting of all the 'minds' on the site.
250.24(C) Requires a grounded conductor brought to the service.
250.24(C)(1) requires the sizing to be 12.5% of the ungrounded conductors of this size service.
The result was to reinstall the conductors, with a grounded conductor installed in each raceway.
The engineer is a very young gentleman, who is fairly new in the field. He had a handbook that was well highlighted and lots of notes. We spoke in private after the meeting. He mentioned to me that this was the first of (8) sites that an inspector actually caught this installation issue. After he finally understood how important it is, he was concerned about the other locations. I suggested he go back to the office and bring it up in a meeting.
He called me a few weeks later to tell me they were going back to the sites to change out the other services. I bet he will not make this mistake again.
(There is lots of other cool stuff I got to experience on this site, other than the service)
More Details Regarding this Service
(the grounded conductor is installed in one of the multiple raceways)
The service is a 480Y/277Volt, 3 phase - 2000A service.
Most of the building loads are 3phase, not requiring a grounded conductor.
The engineer who designed this had 1 grounded conductor on the prints, to supply the GFPE unit that protects the service as per 230.95.
I had issues with this setup, and we had a meeting of all the 'minds' on the site.
250.24(C) Requires a grounded conductor brought to the service.
250.24(C)(1) requires the sizing to be 12.5% of the ungrounded conductors of this size service.
The result was to reinstall the conductors, with a grounded conductor installed in each raceway.
The engineer is a very young gentleman, who is fairly new in the field. He had a handbook that was well highlighted and lots of notes. We spoke in private after the meeting. He mentioned to me that this was the first of (8) sites that an inspector actually caught this installation issue. After he finally understood how important it is, he was concerned about the other locations. I suggested he go back to the office and bring it up in a meeting.
He called me a few weeks later to tell me they were going back to the sites to change out the other services. I bet he will not make this mistake again.
(There is lots of other cool stuff I got to experience on this site, other than the service)
well, spill.....
why didn't a more experienced engineer catch this mistake? and who paid for the repull?
Pierre C Belarge
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
I don't know about the rest of the country, but we are seeing alot of young engineers just a few years out of school around this area.
I am not aware of who paid for the change order.
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
That was important information to know, and definitely affected several answers.
DARUSA
Senior Member
- Location
- New York City
what is the name of the fittings on the pipe?:-?
DARUSA
Senior Member
- Location
- New York City
Bell end? 
Joe Villani
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County NY
Pierre,
How did this get through plan review?
I think a good electrical plans examiner would have caught this error.:grin:
Joe
How did this get through plan review?
I think a good electrical plans examiner would have caught this error.:grin:
Joe
ron
Senior Member
- Location
- New York, 40.7514,-73.9925
Steve,
Unfortunately, where I went, nothing about whether a grounded conductor travels with its ungrounded friends and whether the ungrounded needs to be full sized, 12.5% or any % for that matter.
Unfortunately, where I went, nothing about whether a grounded conductor travels with its ungrounded friends and whether the ungrounded needs to be full sized, 12.5% or any % for that matter.
dcspector
Senior Member
- Location
- Burke, Virginia
Same thing here my friend.
dcspector
Senior Member
- Location
- Burke, Virginia
Bell end?
yes........What are you confused about?
ptrip
Senior Member
It's amazing how little is caught in plan review.
Nothing worthwhile in the real world! :roll: :grin:
Now ... my degree is industrial engineering, not electrical (which is why I hang around here and try to keep my mouth shut a lot ... I have a LOT to learn!). But my ex-husband's ee education told him a lot about circuit analysis and how electricity works from a theoretic standpoint ... not from an installation or code standpoint.
I would like to state something for the record.
Electricians have their required education and licensure tests. Engineers have their required education and licensure tests.
From what I can tell, electrician's tests are based on real world situations and requirements and attempt to prepare the individual for what they will might actually encounter in their profession.
My experience as an engineer is that our education and tests attempt to teach us theories (not necessarily real world) and "how to find the answer" (or so I was told). Anything learned specific to our profession is truly learned on the job. The quality of the engineer is really not in the formal education, but in the experiences gained while making stupid mistakes (or hopefully learning from other's stupid mistakes).
Please give us young, stupid engineers a break every now and again ... we all make mistakes (some minor and some really expensive) and a five year degree doesn't even come close to preventing that!
did the E/C not question it or was he waiting on the change order ? as Pam pointed out, engineers go thru a learning curve also, but most E/Cs knowledgeable enough to install this size service would at least question the omission, I thought.
dcspector
Senior Member
- Location
- Burke, Virginia
Pam,
I understand. I do feel that RFI's need to be generated from the field. That gives all an educational research moment. I hope that made sense. This all seems to be a communication break down between EC and EE as I see everyday. "Lack of communication will break us in the end"
I understand. I do feel that RFI's need to be generated from the field. That gives all an educational research moment. I hope that made sense. This all seems to be a communication break down between EC and EE as I see everyday. "Lack of communication will break us in the end"
I agree with much of what you have posted.It's amazing how little is caught in plan review.
Nothing worthwhile in the real world! :roll: :grin:
Now ... my degree is industrial engineering, not electrical (which is why I hang around here and try to keep my mouth shut a lot ... I have a LOT to learn!). But my ex-husband's ee education told him a lot about circuit analysis and how electricity works from a theoretic standpoint ... not from an installation or code standpoint.
I would like to state something for the record.
Electricians have their required education and licensure tests. Engineers have their required education and licensure tests.
From what I can tell, electrician's tests are based on real world situations and requirements and attempt to prepare the individual for what they will might actually encounter in their profession.
My experience as an engineer is that our education and tests attempt to teach us theories (not necessarily real world) and "how to find the answer" (or so I was told). Anything learned specific to our profession is truly learned on the job. The quality of the engineer is really not in the formal education, but in the experiences gained while making stupid mistakes (or hopefully learning from other's stupid mistakes).
Please give us young, stupid engineers a break every now and again ... we all make mistakes (some minor and some really expensive) and a five year degree doesn't even come close to preventing that!
In my case I did a student apprenticeship. I qualified as an electrician and an electrical engineer. Both are useful in different ways. As an electrician I can appreciate the practicalities. As an engineer I can calculate things like harmonic voltage distortion, motor performance at different frequencies and loads, statistical analysis, system efficiencies......etc.
They are different but complementary fields.
- Status