Does Anything Look Odd with this Service?

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radiopet

radiopet

Senior Member
Location
Spotsylvania, VA
Pierre C Belarge said:
(the grounded conductor is installed in one of the multiple raceways)


The service is a 480Y/277Volt, 3 phase - 2000A service.

Most of the building loads are 3phase, not requiring a grounded conductor.

The engineer who designed this had 1 grounded conductor on the prints, to supply the GFPE unit that protects the service as per 230.95.

I had issues with this setup, and we had a meeting of all the 'minds' on the site.

250.24(C) Requires a grounded conductor brought to the service.
250.24(C)(1) requires the sizing to be 12.5% of the ungrounded conductors of this size service.

The result was to reinstall the conductors, with a grounded conductor installed in each raceway.




The engineer is a very young gentleman, who is fairly new in the field. He had a handbook that was well highlighted and lots of notes. We spoke in private after the meeting. He mentioned to me that this was the first of (8) sites that an inspector actually caught this installation issue. After he finally understood how important it is, he was concerned about the other locations. I suggested he go back to the office and bring it up in a meeting.
He called me a few weeks later to tell me they were going back to the sites to change out the other services. I bet he will not make this mistake again.

(There is lots of other cool stuff I got to experience on this site, other than the service)
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I was getting ready to post just those references....We would have caught that on plan review...we catch worse than this on plan review which got me cussed out by an engineer yesterday.....asked that I never review his plans again sad to say. So I sat down and did his other one waiting review...;)
 
Pierre C Belarge

Pierre C Belarge

Senior Member
Location
Westchester County, New York
If I did not see the issue, it would have been completed that way.
Remember, the young engineer mentioned to me that he had multiple other jobs installed the same way, and all passed either the review and/or the inspections.


Joe
We do plan review as we make our inspections. ;):cool::D
 
kid_stevens

kid_stevens

Senior Member
Location
Albuquerque, NM
The Neutral wire should still be large enough to carry one phase's bolted short and it loses by several conductors of being large enough. The ground wires on the bottom right don't go down the pipes either.
 
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dbuckley

Senior Member
Location
Canterbury, New Zealand
kid_stevens said:
The Neutral wire should still be large enough to carry one phase's bolted short and it loses by several conductors of being large enough.
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Thats the winning vote for me, albeit the conductor(s) shouldn't have to carry the current for long, only until the protection device opens.

The 12.5% is all very interesting, but on a lightly loaded neutral, irrelevant.
 
S

StevenRayWebb

Member
Don't turn it on!

Don't turn it on!

Judging the spacing between Terminals, the 1st 3 terminals are phase conductors and the one to the right should be for ground, this is not visible in the picture, but I would bet if you followed where the conductors are landed on the OC device the right hand terminal goes to an unprotected "neutral"
 
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SAC

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
radiopet said:
I was getting ready to post just those references....We would have caught that on plan review...we catch worse than this on plan review which got me cussed out by an engineer yesterday.....asked that I never review his plans again sad to say. So I sat down and did his other one waiting review...;)
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Wow - that is really bad behavior (not yours - his). As an engineer the absolute worst thing is to have problems found in the field. Please! Please! Please! Please! find my problems on paper! Please!!!! It has to be at least 100 times more expensive to fix once it's installed! We praise up and down those who find our mistakes before they are actually "made"! (yes, lots of !!! but that's how important it is!)
 
e57

e57

Senior Member
Location
San Francisco, CA
SAC said:
Wow - that is really bad behavior (not yours - his). As an engineer the absolute worst thing is to have problems found in the field. Please! Please! Please! Please! find my problems on paper! Please!!!! It has to be at least 100 times more expensive to fix once it's installed! We praise up and down those who find our mistakes before they are actually "made"! (yes, lots of !!! but that's how important it is!)
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The electrician or foreman in the field would love to tell you - their boss won't, and if subbed his client won't either... Even though they all know it may totally wrong - construction class culture and etiquette gets in the way... i.e. 'Don't beat the day-lights out of the pencil pusher' {figuratively} The slightest criticism is seen as doing just that.
 
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SAC

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
e57 said:
The electrician or foreman in the field would love to tell you - their boss won't, and if subbed his client won't either... Even though they all know it may totally wrong - construction class culture and etiquette gets in the way... i.e. 'Don't beat the day-lights out of the pencil pusher' {figuratively} The slightest criticism is seen as doing just that.
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Ahhh, like I said - tell me when it's on paper. Once it's in the field I really don't want to know! In fact, by then it must be someone else's problem - maybe yours? ;) <-- <-- <---
 
daleuger

daleuger

Senior Member
Location
earth
Am I missing something? I would have been screaming what the..... before I even thought of pulling that in.....
 
e57

e57

Senior Member
Location
San Francisco, CA
SAC said:
Ahhh, like I said - tell me when it's on paper. Once it's in the field I really don't want to know! In fact, by then it must be someone else's problem - maybe yours? ;) <-- <-- <---
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I am one of those freaks that makes huge lists of all code violation printed in drawings and specifications - no matter how small. I used to do many of the bid walks, and double check drawings for my former employers. Their only take when I pointed these things out would be, "Is it build-able, or create a direct hazard?" - I hold on to the list until we're ready for inspection, and have to bleed in 10-20 RFIs along the way once the job is landed - so as not to hurt your feelings. We all know what happens if you offend an 'arm-waver' - they talk smack about you to the client - trying to defend themselves....

daleuger said:
Am I missing something? I would have been screaming what the..... before I even thought of pulling that in.....
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No - you would be laughing all the way to the bank.... ;)
 
daleuger

daleuger

Senior Member
Location
earth
e57 said:
No - you would be laughing all the way to the bank.... ;)
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Not likely. If I've learned anything about this business I've learned what rolls downhill. So even if it was a mistake and somehow got past all those stages it would still magically be mostly my fault.
 
S

SAC

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
e57 said:
I am one of those freaks that makes huge lists of all code violation printed in drawings and specifications - no matter how small. I used to do many of the bid walks, and double check drawings for my former employers. Their only take when I pointed these things out would be, "Is it build-able, or create a direct hazard?" - I hold on to the list until we're ready for inspection, and have to bleed in 10-20 RFIs along the way once the job is landed - so as not to hurt your feelings. We all know what happens if you offend an 'arm-waver' - they talk smack about you to the client - trying to defend themselves....
Click to expand...

Maybe you could have contracted with them to review their designs and find such problems before they went to bid - sounds like they really needed it and like you have a knack for it.
 
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