Does code require all the pins on a receptacle to be used?

WD40 said:
I company I work for had an issue with some 14-50's at a senior living condo complex, our guys cut the cable so the terminations stayed on there (they were pretty baked but not as bad as other's I have seen recently) then the owner had them sent them to the manufacturer at his own expense, he's a demanding guy and likes to get to the bottom of stuff. There was some back and forth about the chargers, the settings and the brand then nothing and about a year or more later the manufacturer said the issue was with the aluminum terminations, I think they asked if they had been greased with noalox . All the new heavy duty EV receptacles now have silently dropped support for aluminum cable.
They are CU only.
Same issue as house outlets and AL wire in the 1970's IMO.
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AL wire is it's own separate issue. We don't allow it locally. I don't think it's worthwhile for anything other than feeders/SECs, but even that's not allowed locally.

CoolWill said:
Says the entirety of this thread.
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The entire thread is about neutral pins not 1450s burning up, keep up. Come back to me with facts.

There is 1 prior post about a 1450 meltdown, and it fits with my general vibe here:
  • The primary issue is the cheap Leviton 1450 (and likely other generics)
  • Bad wiring/terminations will also cause it (and same for any outlet)
  • 90% of "my EV outlet melted down" posts that I've seen online are all Levitons

Did this EV business all start with Leviton outlets burning up then Leviton coming out with a special EV outlet, then all the other brands following suit sensing a fresh business opportunity? Maybe it speaks more to Leviton specifically rather than all 1450s... :unsure:
 
Here's a side-by-side of Legrand's standard and EV/WR outlets, with 1 of each's copper contacts taken out:
scam.jpg

There may be minor differences in copper alloy. There is a different sheen on the plastic. The yoke and small screws are stainless steel. I'm struggling to find $50 in value difference. Oh, there's a little green EV symbol on the front, I believe that ink is worth at least $45.

I will offer the EV outlet as an upcharge to customers, but I'm not going to push them on anyone. I also will never install a Leviton POS outlet. They are clearly inferior in build quality to even generic brands.
 
NoahsArc said:
Here's a side-by-side of Legrand's standard and EV/WR outlets, with 1 of each's copper contacts taken out:
View attachment 2577025

There may be minor differences in copper alloy. There is a different sheen on the plastic. The yoke and small screws are stainless steel. I'm struggling to find $50 in value difference. Oh, there's a little green EV symbol on the front, I believe that ink is worth at least $45.

I will offer the EV outlet as an upcharge to customers, but I'm not going to push them on anyone. I also will never install a Leviton POS outlet. They are clearly inferior in build quality to even generic brands.
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Just read the thread. Also, don't be dooosh, we're just talking here.
 
CoolWill said:
Just read the thread. Also, don't be dooosh, we're just talking here.
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"don't be a dooosh" says the guy that just called me a name for asking him to provide facts to back up his statements :rolleyes:

Also instead of actually providing any meaningful facts for his statement of "says the entire thread", he says "just read the thread" again. See picture below for that.

Is "we're just talking here" another way of saying "I don't have any actual facts"? Seems so. I'm hoping at least someone else can chime in who does have facts. And, no, we're not just talking here, we're making business decisions that include the safety of people and their homes/businesses. If you're "just talking", go somewhere else and stop trolling the thread.

summary.png

Consider integrating AI into your thought processes to assist yourself with gaps.
 
NoahsArc said:
Here's a side-by-side of Legrand's standard and EV/WR outlets, with 1 of each's copper contacts taken out:
View attachment 2577025

There may be minor differences in copper alloy. There is a different sheen on the plastic. The yoke and small screws are stainless steel. I'm struggling to find $50 in value difference. Oh, there's a little green EV symbol on the front, I believe that ink is worth at least $45.

I will offer the EV outlet as an upcharge to customers, but I'm not going to push them on anyone. I also will never install a Leviton POS outlet. They are clearly inferior in build quality to even generic brands.
Click to expand...
It looks like the terminal screws directly contact the wire. That’s part of the problem with the “Leviton
POS.”
Leviton top, Hubbell bottom:
IMG_0438.jpeg
 
I started this thread after at three different service calls its not just EV's I had;
  • A pin and sleeve outlet and cord thats 480/3 ph, was for 480 single phase load, 3rd pin floating in the box. it was on a 2p breaker.
  • A 5 wire 3-phase NEMA L21-30 receptacle to a 208 mixer no neutral wire (mixer did not need one).
  • A 120/240 NEMA 14-50 with the neutral pin omitted for a 240V EV load, installed by a certified EV installer who said thats how they do them all, just run a 2 wire + bare EGC cable.
And I could not find a clear as day part of the code that said
"thou shalt follow the NEMA standard with no exception"
my boss shrugged his shoulders and said follow code so I asked you guys
 
NoahsArc said:
"don't be a dooosh" says the guy that just called me a name for asking him to provide facts to back up his statements :rolleyes:

Also instead of actually providing any meaningful facts for his statement of "says the entire thread", he says "just read the thread" again. See picture below for that.

Is "we're just talking here" another way of saying "I don't have any actual facts"? Seems so. I'm hoping at least someone else can chime in who does have facts. And, no, we're not just talking here, we're making business decisions that include the safety of people and their homes/businesses. If you're "just talking", go somewhere else and stop trolling the thread.

View attachment 2577027

Consider integrating AI into your thought processes to assist yourself with gaps.
Click to expand...
I didn't call you a dooosh, I said don't be one. But you respond with more doooshery. Tons of posts in this very thread are taking about the 14-50R melting down due to the chintzy type of connection on the back of the cheap ones. There are no scientific facts to be stated, just the experience of people who have seen the aftermath of the cheap receptacles being loaded below their rating for long periods of time. That's what one calls "anecdotal". Have ChatGPT define that for you.
 
C'mon, guys, or this will become another closed thread.

Please try to address the discussion, not each other.
 
We had this same exact problem with #12 aluminum wire on regular outlets in the 1970's, they eventually just made different receptacles for the aluminum, thats what I would do just make a receptacle for AL wire and one for CU wire.
 
retirede said:
It looks like the terminal screws directly contact the wire. That’s part of the problem with the “Leviton
POS.”
Click to expand...

However, the Legrand "EV/WR" version also has a direct screw contact.
And so does the 200A MCB feeding it...

I think the main issue with the Leviton is that the assembly is much shallower than every other 1450 I've seen, including generics. That means probably weaker/flimsier contact. They just don't have as much of a contact, period.

The contacts are also not even coppery colored, they're that mystery silver alloy you get in cheaper parts. Even the generics have at least copper-adjacent contacts.

It's also the only one where wires are terminated from the back rather than the side. I did not tear down the receptacle to see how the internals are setup, but they're clearly different than just about every other 1450 on the market.

Leviton's patent should be delisted by UL. Whether we need anything further is unclear. I have seen no consistent reports of EVs burning up other brands at a rate that's higher than background noise for receptacles of any sort.

I'm also curious what the actual failure rate is, and how it compares to non-EV 1450s and other standards. People do tend to make a big deal of New Thing, and as I've noticed, a lot of the complaint over outlets is coming from DIY forums...
 
NoahsArc said:
However, the Legrand "EV/WR" version also has a direct screw contact.
And so does the 200A MCB feeding it...

I think the main issue with the Leviton is that the assembly is much shallower than every other 1450 I've seen, including generics. That means probably weaker/flimsier contact. They just don't have as much of a contact, period.

The contacts are also not even coppery colored, they're that mystery silver alloy you get in cheaper parts. Even the generics have at least copper-adjacent contacts.

It's also the only one where wires are terminated from the back rather than the side. I did not tear down the receptacle to see how the internals are setup, but they're clearly different than just about every other 1450 on the market.

Leviton's patent should be delisted by UL. Whether we need anything further is unclear. I have seen no consistent reports of EVs burning up other brands at a rate that's higher than background noise for receptacles of any sort.

I'm also curious what the actual failure rate is, and how it compares to non-EV 1450s and other standards. People do tend to make a big deal of New Thing, and as I've noticed, a lot of the complaint over outlets is coming from DIY forums...
Click to expand...
I personally never had a call back on the cheap devices I've installed for EV chargers, including Leviton. Granted, I haven't installed a ton, maybe 15. But I have heard enough about it that there is probably something going on. It is likely a perfect storm of cheap devices, poor installation technique, and aluminum or undersized copper. #8 THHN is code-legal for 50 amps, but when you understand that part of the function of the conductor is to act as a heat sink, you realize that bigger is better.
 
And it's not easy to tighten poor-quality screws to a consistent 50 amps' worth of tightness.

I probably hand-tighten most terminals beyond the recommended torque range.
 
LarryFine said:
I have that well in mind when I tighten connections, as well as twisting from pushing the receptacle into the box.
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This is one of the reasons I think that hardwire EVSE are more DIY friendly for installs.
The whole skill set of pushing a heavy receptacle into a box without messing things up is not applicable.

CMP-12 seems bent on promoting receptacles, which is sad.
 
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