doubling neutral wires in ground bar in panel

[mlnk]

Where are you getting this?
Yeah, its inconvenient to have a 2-P breaker and have to turn off both circuits just to work on one but in residential that's not too bad. It's often a time & material savings and safe if done correctly. I've never heard anywhere that it will be prohibited in the future.

Google it and you will find all the numerous arguments to ban MW circuits.
In summary: It is more than inconvenient - it is unsafe and damages thousands of dollars of equipment each year. Think about it: the time spent on wiring MW circuits correctly outweighs the trivial material savings.
Every cycle it is proposed in NEC Code committees.
For many years computer instructions have required a dedicated circuit with an independent neutral.
The new reason is that two pole AFCI breakers cost $90 and they are another unnecessary item to buy.

 

[romex jockey]

Well that makes me wonder about the GE AFCI set up here>>>



http://apps.geindustrial.com/publib...lename=DET-719 CAFCI Shared Neutral Guide.pdf


Check it out (fig 1 &2, pdf) two one pole AFCI's with handle tie serving a multiwire

GE....imagination at work!


~RJ~

 

[infinity]

Google it and you will find all the numerous arguments to ban MW circuits.
In summary: It is more than inconvenient - it is unsafe and damages thousands of dollars of equipment each year. Think about it: the time spent on wiring MW circuits correctly outweighs the trivial material savings.
Every cycle it is proposed in NEC Code committees.
For many years computer instructions have required a dedicated circuit with an independent neutral.
The new reason is that two pole AFCI breakers cost $90 and they are another unnecessary item to buy.

MWBC's are inherently safe and there is nothing wrong with them when installed properly. There are proposals in every code cycle to require receptacles to be installed ground up but that gets rejected every time. The same for eliminating MWBC's, they're here to stay.

 

[mbrooke]

GE....imagination at work!


~RJ~

GE

Imagine it working






Seriously, in this case it will work because it doesn't... :thumbsup:

 

[romex jockey]

oh I know MBrooke,

I actually ran into a GE rep at a trade show , who prattled on about their afci's for a good 20 minutes like they were the lord's gift to the entire unholy trade.....


~RJ~

 

[ggunn]

Google it and you will find all the numerous arguments to ban MW circuits.
In summary: It is more than inconvenient - it is unsafe and damages thousands of dollars of equipment each year. Think about it: the time spent on wiring MW circuits correctly outweighs the trivial material savings.
Every cycle it is proposed in NEC Code committees.
For many years computer instructions have required a dedicated circuit with an independent neutral.
The new reason is that two pole AFCI breakers cost $90 and they are another unnecessary item to buy.

All of that, true or not, does not necessarily mean that they will be outlawed.

 

[infinity]

All of that, true or not, does not necessarily mean that they will be outlawed.

It's more like wishful thinking for the MWBC haters.

 

[jaggedben]

Google it and you will find all the numerous arguments to ban MW circuits.
...In summary: It is more than inconvenient - it is unsafe and damages thousands of dollars of equipment each year. Think about it: the time spent on wiring MW circuits correctly outweighs the trivial material savings.
....

I guess it depends how smart the installer is. It's not just the material, it's also the time to install twice as much cable.

 

[gadfly56]

MWBC's are inherently safe and there is nothing wrong with them when installed properly. There are proposals in every code cycle to require receptacles to be installed ground up but that gets rejected every time. The same for eliminating MWBC's, they're here to stay.

Oh God, you did NOT just start that up again...! :slaphead:

 

[HoosierSparky]

There can be only one!

There can be only one!

Romex Jockey had it right earlier, but left out the ICC Residential reference:

E3706.4 Grounded Conductor Terminations. - Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard on an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor except that grounded conductors of circuits with parallel conductors shall be permitted to terminate on a single terminal where terminal is identified for connection of more than on conductor.

---

 

[goldstar]

Romex Jockey had it right earlier, but left out the ICC Residential reference:

E3706.4 Grounded Conductor Terminations. - Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard on an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor except that grounded conductors of circuits with parallel conductors shall be permitted to terminate on a single terminal where terminal is identified for connection of more than on conductor.

---

Where did you get that obscure Code from ?

 

[LarryFine]

And what neutral bus has that type of terminal large enough to accept two conductors large enough to legally parallel?

 

[Greg1707]

multiple EG under one lug

multiple EG under one lug

On older panels I often see all of the Equipment Grounds twisted together and landed in a large lug. Was this or is this approved?

 

[electrofelon]

Our AHJ does not allow twisting ground wires together in a panel, they must each connect to a terminal but can be doubled up

Is that codified in a local or state law or amendment?

 

[electrofelon]

Is that codified in a local or state law or amendment?

How does it work in pipe with multiple circuits? It's the same thing.

 

[infinity]

On older panels I often see all of the Equipment Grounds twisted together and landed in a large lug. Was this or is this approved?

Not approved, but I don't see that being any different than twisting the neutral strands of SEU cable and inserting into a lug which is code compliant.

 

[roger]

MWBC's are inherently safe and there is nothing wrong with them when installed properly. There are proposals in every code cycle to require receptacles to be installed ground up but that gets rejected every time. The same for eliminating MWBC's, they're here to stay.

:thumbsup:

Roger

 

[Craigv]

oh I know MBrooke,

I actually ran into a GE rep at a trade show , who prattled on about their afci's for a good 20 minutes like they were the lord's gift to the entire unholy trade.....


~RJ~

Shoulda asked him how we should trust their afci breakers when they can't even manufacture reliable standard breakers. Just replaced several brand new ones that were DOA.

 

[kwired]

And what neutral bus has that type of terminal large enough to accept two conductors large enough to legally parallel?

In typical "loadcenters" probably none, possible exception may be if there is "feed thru lugs". Otherwise when you have 400 amp + feeders to supply, I would think the chance at least increases.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Google it and you will find all the numerous arguments to ban MW circuits.
In summary: It is more than inconvenient - it is unsafe and damages thousands of dollars of equipment each year. Think about it: the time spent on wiring MW circuits correctly outweighs the trivial material savings.
Every cycle it is proposed in NEC Code committees.
For many years computer instructions have required a dedicated circuit with an independent neutral.
The new reason is that two pole AFCI breakers cost $90 and they are another unnecessary item to buy.

I doubt that there will be additional changes to ban MWBC circuits. The current rule requiring a common means of disconnect has addressed the safety issue. On a side note the service is a multiwire circuit, and I have seen a lot more open service neutrals than I have open branch circuit neutrals. The rules for services will never be changed to require a neutral for each ungrounded conductor.