Dryers, Dryers, Dryers...

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Energy-Miser

Energy-Miser

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Maryland
Greetings all,
This house is maxed out in panel space, has washer N dryer in basement, but the lady of the house wants a new set installed upstairs, except she wants to keep the dryer in the basement live, for occasional use. In light of no space situation in panel, could I connect the new dryer to the same circuit as the old, except separate it from the existing dryer with a double pole double throw switch, so that they won't both be operable at the same time? Will I be complying with the intent of the NEC if I did that? Or will it be considered a sneak around? Your opinions appreciated as always. e/m.
 
Will either dryer draw more then 80% of the circuit rating?

If not you can simply supply the new receptacle from the old circuit.
 
iwire said:
Will either dryer draw more then 80% of the circuit rating?

If not you can simply supply the new receptacle from the old circuit.
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You know, the new dryer is not there yet, and the old one, unfortunately I did not check. The exisiting breaker for the dryer is 2p 30 amp. I guess a typical dryer (at 5000 w?) would draw around 21 amps, a few amperes below 80% of the 30. But then again, I don't know what their ratings are and therefore could not be sure of the amp draw of each, in reality. e/m.
 
I would simply parallel them, forget the DPDT switch, and trust the breaker to remind them when they try to run both at the same time.
 
LarryFine said:
I would simply parallel them, forget the DPDT switch, and trust the breaker to remind them when they try to run both at the same time.
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Yes, that was my first thought, specially as she was aware that if she tried to use both at the same time, she would end up using neither, until a visit to the breaker box. The job is not inspected, but what about NEC? Does it anyhere say not to do this? e/m.
 
Energy-Miser said:
what about NEC? Does it anyhere say not to do this? e/m.
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The NEC will allow it if each machine is less the 80% of the circuit.

I would be willing to bet they are.

See 210.23(B)
 
Energy-Miser said:
Ok, then I will go with that, no need for DPDT switch !
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Unless you want to sell one. It confounds me why in every situation electricians feel compelled to try to do the job the cheapest possible way. Many times, this is beneficial. Other times, it's pointless effort. If this job is pretty much yours anyhow, give them the option at least. People bite on suggested upgrades at least 33% of the time.
 
mdshunk said:
Unless you want to sell one. It confounds me why in every situation electricians feel compelled to try to do the job the cheapest possible way. Many times, this is beneficial. Other times, it's pointless effort. If this job is pretty much yours anyhow, give them the option at least. People bite on suggested upgrades at least 33% of the time.
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Yes, but in this case the inconvenience of having to set the switch this way or that prior to using one or other of the dryers probably will not be worth the upgrade for them. Back to your opening question, I think it might be because electricians as all technicians and engineers are bred to think in terms of economy of effort and expenditure when faced with alternative ways of accomplishing a task. Only MHO. e/m.
 
Energy-Miser said:
Back to your opening question, I think it might be because electricians as all technicians and engineers are bred to think in terms of economy of effort and expenditure when faced with alternative ways of accomplishing a task.
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You're exactly right, which is also akin to shooting yourself in the foot on jobs where it does not matter or where you can rightfully give the customer an option.
 
mdshunk said:
You're exactly right, which is also akin to shooting yourself in the foot on jobs where it does not matter or where you can rightfully give the customer an option.
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Yeah, but I get a perverse satisfaction from it, which money can't buy !
 
mdshunk said:
You're exactly right, which is also akin to shooting yourself in the foot on jobs where it does not matter or where you can rightfully give the customer an option.
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On the other hand, stories abound of contractors viewed as deceitful for upselling unnecessarily. It can be a double-edged sword, and I imagine many ECs (and their employees) try to exercise some restraint when dealing with customers.

Just the other day at break we were all sitting around talking, and the subject revolved around a friend of a friend (or something) of one of the guys, who got fired from an EC for not aggressively upselling an 80-year-old widow who called them out for a simple receptacle swap. The tone around the campfire wasn't "well, upselling is the nature of business" it was "that cutthroat EC was upset over a missed chance at sticking it to an old widow."

What's real or not matters little when it comes to perceptions, sometimes.
 
georgestolz said:
On the other hand, stories abound of contractors viewed as deceitful for upselling unnecessarily. It can be a double-edged sword, and I imagine many ECs (and their employees) try to exercise some restraint when dealing with customers.

Just the other day at break we were all sitting around talking, and the subject revolved around a friend of a friend (or something) of one of the guys, who got fired from an EC for not aggressively upselling an 80-year-old widow who called them out for a simple receptacle swap. The tone around the campfire wasn't "well, upselling is the nature of business" it was "that cutthroat EC was upset over a missed chance at sticking it to an old widow."

What's real or not matters little when it comes to perceptions, sometimes.
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Yes, true. I was on an estimating visit, where the HO was adding all the amps of the CB's in his breaker box and saying that looks like my service is inadequate, and I need a heavy up. I did of course educate him on diversity of load, etc. and talked him out of it. But to be fair, Marc's point, my understanding, was to upsell where it is jusified and beneficial to the customer, telling them all the pros and cons. For example, I did mention to the HO regarding the dryer (my original post in this thread), that we could install for them a new panel with same amperage but more spaces, but once he heard the price, he opted for putting both dryers on the same circuit. BTW, we could also add more twins and free up space for the second dryer. They do make twins still for Bryant panels right? e/m.
 
This is a case where the second half of my "motto" comes into play.


"Just because it's against code doesn't make it wrong. Just because it IS code doesn't make it right"

Compliant or not, I wouldn't install it. If you are going to upsell, sell a circuit.
 
Yes, you need to know where to draw the line. I'm not even remotely suggesting agressive upselling. What I'm talking about is more giving the person options. Guys do this when they bid, but backwards from what I'm talking about. They sometimes offer a 'value engineered' option. Why not give a couple nicer options when you're on a service call? Customer has a single pole switch that's bad. Why not bring in a rotary dimmer and a slide dimmer off the truck too, to show them a couple neat options rather than just putting a new snap switch back in? That's the sort of think I'm talking a about. Last week I was on a job where the new homeowner was having all the devices switched to white color. I suggested Ariadni dimmers in certain places, and suggested changing the old gold T87 thermostat to a white digital and changing the old chime unit to a white chime. The customer loved these ideas, and handily agreed to them. I'm merely stating that we can often suggest things the customer might have never thought of and increase the bottom line. In the case of the dryer, mounting problems aside, the customer may well ascribe some value to the DPDT switch versus possibly having to reset the breaker (a scary situation to many lay people).
 
mdshunk said:
Yes, you need to know where to draw the line. I'm not even remotely suggesting agressive upselling.....
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Yes, totally legitimate. In this case we are fulfilling our role as a consultant, who has valuable ideas and suggestions. I get questions about lighting for example all the time, as I am sure all of you have come across too. I feel inadequate giving too much advice on that, beyond just the basics, but it suggests to me that learning a little more about lighting as an example will help increase my bottom line and at the same time will elevate customer's confidence in me as someone who knows the business well. e/m.
 
Yes, lighting design is my weak point too. It's more art than science, which is why I choose generally to not get involved with it. I can put you X number of footcandles on your working plane, but don't ask me to do an artistic design or select decorative fixtures. I'll always be wrong. I leave that to the lighting designers. That lets the customer be mad a someone other than me.
 
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No full size breakers you can mini up? Could install a sub panel next to the service panel then feed the dryer and the displaced circuits.

How about combining some of the other circuits? My place had the outlet for a sprinkler controller on it's own circuit and I needed some panel space so I combined it with something appropriate.
 
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Why don't you suggest a gas dryer, since you have to call a plumber to run the vent for the new dryer anyway, perhaps he could run a gas line too. I'm no lawyer, as anyone would know from my P&L, but I would not stick your neck out for this client. Her insurance company doesn't care about customer service and they won't go easy on you if anything even remotely related to your work can be cited if something goes wrong.
 
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Welcome to the forum.:smile:

millieamp said:
Why don't you suggest a gas dryer, since you have to call a plumber to run the vent for the new dryer anyway,
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A plumber?



As far as installing two 30 amp receptacles on one 30 amp circuit that is as acceptable as putting more then one 15 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit.:smile:
 
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