Dryers, Dryers, Dryers...

[LarryFine]

Looking at the text of 210.23(A)(1), I'd disagree. It seems to make a distinction that fixed equipment can be either hard-wired or cord-and-plug connected.

(1) Cord-and-Plug-Connected Equipment. The rating of any one cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment shall not exceed 80 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating.

I don't see your point. :-? Each dryer would be below the 80% limit.

 

[LarryFine]

I have intentionally and permanently connected two appliances to the same circuit while knowing that both can't be operated at the same time without overloading the circuit.

Plugged in is permanent? Besides, 210.23(A)(1) still allows this, as long as each piece doesn't exceed 80% of the circuit's ampacity.

I'm not saying doubling appliances is a good idea, just that the text allows it.

 

[George Stolz]

I don't see your point. :-?

Larry, look at the sentence structure, not so much what it's saying:

(1) Cord-and-Plug-Connected Equipment Not Fastened
in Place. The rating of any one cord-and-plug-connected
utilization equipment not fastened in place shall not exceed
80 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating.
(2) Utilization Equipment Fastened in Place. The total
rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than
luminaires (lighting fixtures), shall not exceed 50 percent of
the branch-circuit ampere rating where lighting units, cord-and-
plug-connected utilization equipment not fastened in
place, or both, are also supplied.

Isn't that a lot of doublespeak if the red phrases and the green phrases are synonymous?

That tells me there is such a thing as cord-and-plug-connected equipment fastened in place, right? GDO's, disposals, microwaves, dryers, and so forth.

Each dryer would be below the 80% limit.

Right, but the pair together would exceed the BC rating, which is prohibited in 210.23 (initial section), IMO.

 

[LarryFine]

That tells me there is such a thing as cord-and-plug-connected equipment fastened in place, right? GDO's, disposals, microwaves, dryers, and so forth.

GDO's, disposers, mounted microwaves, yes.

My dryer is not fastened in place. Nor is my range.

BTW, we recently had a thread about several GDO's on a single circuit, and concluded that the unlikelihood of simultaneous operation made it okay.

 

[George Stolz]

GDO's, disposers, mounted microwaves, yes.

My dryer is not fastened in place. Nor is my range.

How is your disposal fastened in place?

Another question (not prodding you, just expanding on my opinion): why does the NEC have the bottom drawer allowance for disconnecting means for the range? It is because the range is big and heavy (essentially, fastened in place by sheer size) and so they do not want it to have to be removed to disconnect it?

BTW, we recently had a thread about several GDO's on a single circuit, and concluded that the unlikelihood of simultaneous operation made it okay.

I know, I participated in that thread. But I see a big difference between two dryers that may well run at the same time for an hour and two GDO's that probably won't, and aren't running over the overall circuit rating as a pair by themselves.

 

[mwysinger]

and it won't because the breaker will trip.

Idon't care who y'are, that's funny right there!!!:grin:

 

[brother]

GDO's, disposers, mounted microwaves, yes.

My dryer is not fastened in place. Nor is my range.

BTW, we recently had a thread about several GDO's on a single circuit, and concluded that the unlikelihood of simultaneous operation made it okay.

Im going to have to agree with others on this one. I think its a code violation to have them both on the same circuit. Even though we may not have define 'fixed/fastened in place' equipment, To intentionally put in a 'special receptacle' for the purpose of these 2 dryers i beleive is wrong and violation.

We have to remember and keep in mind that these are NOT general purpose receptacles. These are for a specific purpose so we know and should have known what the load would be.

So in the scenerio of the garbage disposal, even though i can PLUG in a vacuum cleaner in that receptacle, we still would know that the intended use was for that gd and circuit is to be able to handle that.

 

[Bob NH]

Looking at the text of 210.23(A)(1), I'd disagree. It seems to make a distinction that fixed equipment can be either hard-wired or cord-and-plug connected.

210.23(A)(1) doesn't apply to 30 Amp branch circuits.

210.23(B) DOES apply.

210.23(B) 30 Ampere Branch Circuits. . . . A rating of any one cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment shall not exceed 80 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating.

There is no prohibition in that language to have more than one receptacle outlet for cord-and-plug equipment as long as the rating of any one "equipment" doesn't exceed 80 percent of the ampere rating of the circuit.

 

[iwire]

There is no prohibition in that language to have more than one receptacle outlet for cord-and-plug equipment as long as the rating of any one "equipment" doesn't exceed 80 percent of the ampere rating of the circuit.

I agree, and has been what I was saying from the beginning.

But IMO because what I was suggesting was so different from what we all have seen in the field that no few had open minds about it.

 

[LarryFine]

How is your disposal fastened in place?

By the rotating locking ring that attaches to the bottom of the drain basket.

(not prodding you, just expanding on my opinion)

(No problem, I'm having fun, too!)

Another question: why does the NEC have the bottom drawer allowance for disconnecting means for the range? It is because the range is big and heavy (essentially, fastened in place by sheer size) and so they do not want it to have to be removed to disconnect it?

That's possible, but why doesn't a dryer have the same requirement? My range is a stationary appliance, like my dryer, but only a drop-in or other installed appliance is genuinely fastened in place.

For that matter, where would two slide-in ranges be prohibited from sharing a circuit?

 

[Bob NH]

Right, but the pair together would exceed the BC rating, which is prohibited in 210.23 (initial section), IMO.

Not correct.

210.23 Permissible Loads. . . . A branch circuit supplying two or more outlets or receptacles shall supply only the loads specified according to its size as specified in 210.23(A) through (D) and as summarized in 210.24 and Table 210.24.

210.23(B) and 210.24 including Table 210.24 make it clear that only the LOADS are controlled by the size of the circuit; NOT the number of receptacles. 210.24 explicitly refers to circuits that have two or more receptacles.

As long as the LOAD is defined as one dryer then two or more receptacles on one circuit is not a violation of the code.

 

[Energy-Miser]

I'm not trying to start a argument.
...
In my opinion, I have violated 210.23
....

steve

210.30(B) (2002 issue), "A 30-ampere branch circuit ... A rating of any one cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipement shall not exceed 80 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating." Definition of "utilization equipment" per article 100 does not exclude household dryers. Please tell me if I am missing something. e/m.

 

[Energy-Miser]

Not correct.

210.23 Permissible Loads. . . . A branch circuit supplying two or more outlets or receptacles shall supply only the loads specified according to its size as specified in 210.23(A) through (D) and as summarized in 210.24 and Table 210.24.

210.23(B) and 210.24 including Table 210.24 make it clear that only the LOADS are controlled by the size of the circuit; NOT the number of receptacles. 210.24 explicitly refers to circuits that have two or more receptacles.

As long as the LOAD is defined as one dryer then two or more receptacles on one circuit is not a violation of the code.

I will have to agree with that. e/m

 

[George Stolz]

As long as the LOAD is defined as one dryer then two or more receptacles on one circuit is not a violation of the code.

Let me see if I can clear up my concern with this, maybe I will make more sense with some pictures. I don't care if they line their walls with dryer receptacles, I'm only concerned with the load too.

Example 1:

​

Example 2:

​

____________________________

Assuming identical dryers, I would be comfortable with example 2, but would not like example 1. There are too many dryers on the circuit, regardless of how many receptacles are present to plug the dryer(s) into.

 

[crossman]

Wouldn't a dryer be "fastened in place" because it has a vent that attaches to the outside?

 

[Bob NH]

The citations in the code clearly draw a difference between "fastened-in-place" equipment as contrasted with "plug-and-cord" connected equipment. The code doesn't mention bolting things to the floor or attaching vents. "Fastened-in-place" is clearly meant to mean the electrical connection.

The NEC is an electrical code. The acceptability of the circuit applies when the circuit is installed. Two dryer outlets on different floors of the house are installed before there is a dryer. Those two outlets are acceptable per code.

 

[stickboy1375]

Wouldn't a dryer be "fastened in place" because it has a vent that attaches to the outside?

IMO, if you can move the equipment then its not fastened in place... I've yet to see a dryer bolted to the floor.


[Edit] I agree with Bob NH post above...

 

[George Stolz]

The citations in the code clearly draw a difference between "fastened-in-place" equipment as contrasted with "plug-and-cord" connected equipment. The code doesn't mention bolting things to the floor or attaching vents. "Fastened-in-place" is clearly meant to mean the electrical connection.

Bob, did you look at the red/green highlights I did a page or two back looking at 210.23?

Comparing apples to apples, we'd compare C&P connected to "directly connected".

"Fastened in place" means just that, fastened in place - it's not synonymous with "directly connected" (or "hardwired"). That's apples and oranges, IMO.

 

[crossman]

Certainly an interesting topic. I am tending to the side that says it is okay by code to put the two receptacles on the one circuit, but I don't like it personally.

As for fastened in place, I see what Bob is saying. The NEC wouldn't be concerned about a vent connection. If it can be unplugged, then it is not fastened in place electrically. Makes sense.

 

[crossman]

Darn it George! I thought i had it. Now I am back to read your previous posts.