Dryers, Dryers, Dryers...

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mdshunk said:
It confounds me why in every situation electricians feel compelled to try to do the job the cheapest possible way. Many times, this is beneficial. Other times, it's pointless effort.
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Me too.... Not that we are in the biz of selling happiness, but the day they turn on both and both go out - they are no longer happy... That said, another sub to take this dryer out of, and a few more down the line is a necessary improvement of infrastructure IMO. After all this second "laundry" needs a 120 20A as well.

I have dealt with resteraunt owners who claim they don't want extra circuits for this or that. I remind them of those times they had to go back to the CB panel to reset breakers during a lunch rush - They often cough up a few bones for them. If they don't I tell them not to curse my name when the 3 pannini grills, and the microwave in a quad stop working.
 
mdshunk said:
Yes, lighting design is my weak point too. It's more art than science, which is why I choose generally to not get involved with it. I can put you X number of footcandles on your working plane, but don't ask me to do an artistic design or select decorative fixtures. I'll always be wrong. I leave that to the lighting designers. That lets the customer be mad a someone other than me.
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I think there is a lot of money to be made with lighting design though. I have been tempted at times to study it and maybe get a certificate in it, but of course there is never enough time for such extra curricular activities ! e/m.
 
wireman71 said:
No full size breakers you can mini up? Could install a sub panel next to the service panel then feed the dryer and the displaced circuits.

How about combining some of the other circuits? My place had the outlet for a sprinkler controller on it's own circuit and I needed some panel space so I combined it with something appropriate.
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Yes, good suggetions, although from talking to them, doesn't seem like they would entertain the sub panel option, too expensive. e/m
 
millieamp said:
Why don't you suggest a gas dryer, since you have to call a plumber to run the vent for the new dryer anyway, perhaps he could run a gas line too. I'm no lawyer, as anyone would know from my P&L, but I would not stick your neck out for this client. Her insurance company doesn't care about customer service and they won't go easy on you if anything even remotely related to your work can be cited if something goes wrong.
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Don't think they have gas, they live way out in the woods. From what I hear on this forum, I get the impression that two dryers on same circuit is not a viloation as long as each draws less than 80% of the rated amperage of the circuit. Anyway, I noticed this is your first post, having joined the forum 3 years ago! You are a patient man. e/m.
 
Energy-Miser said:
Yes, good suggetions, although from talking to them, doesn't seem like they would entertain the sub panel option, too expensive. e/m
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Even putting in tandems/mini's can get expensive. I think I'm retailing QO tandems for around 80 or 90 bucks. Doesn't take too many of those to equal the price of a small sub or sometimes even justify a service upgrade.
 
e57 said:
Me too.... Not that we are in the biz of selling happiness, but the day they turn on both and both go out - they are no longer happy... That said, another sub to take this dryer out of, and a few more down the line is a necessary improvement of infrastructure IMO. After all this second "laundry" needs a 120 20A as well.

I have dealt with resteraunt owners who claim they don't want extra circuits for this or that. I remind them of those times they had to go back to the CB panel to reset breakers during a lunch rush - They often cough up a few bones for them. If they don't I tell them not to curse my name when the 3 pannini grills, and the microwave in a quad stop working.
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I don't think they will go for an upgrade of any sort right now. Maybe once the trippings become too much for them they will call and ask about other options. Same experience with restaurants here, the only good thing is that they know exactly what is on what circuit, from having to rest them all the time!
 
mdshunk said:
Even putting in tandems/mini's can get expensive. I think I'm retailing QO tandems for around 80 or 90 bucks. Doesn't take too many of those to equal the price of a small sub or sometimes even justify a service upgrade.
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Yes rediculesly expensive compared to the full size single pole ones which go for well under 10 bucks in most cases.
 
Energy-Miser said:
BTW, we could also add more twins and free up space for the second dryer. They do make twins still for Bryant panels right? e/m.
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You can get double pole twins for Bryant panels at Home Depot for about $15. I think a double pole twin 30-30 is an on the shelf item there (as is a 30-50 which would work if they have a 50A range circuit). See the Cutler-Hammer BR line -- they bought Bryant/Westinghouse rights and have the CH BR line now to support it.

Just replace the existing double 30 with a double 30-30 if the panel allows twins in that location.
 
mdshunk said:
Even putting in tandems/mini's can get expensive. I think I'm retailing QO tandems for around 80 or 90 bucks. Doesn't take too many of those to equal the price of a small sub or sometimes even justify a service upgrade.
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Has anyone priced out a 30 Amp DPDT switch lately? From what I understand, they ain't cheap, either.:-?
 
No! I can't go with the Flow

No! I can't go with the Flow

Energy-Miser said:
Greetings all,
This house is maxed out in panel space, has washer N dryer in basement, but the lady of the house wants a new set installed upstairs, except she wants to keep the dryer in the basement live, for occasional use. In light of no space situation in panel, could I connect the new dryer to the same circuit as the old, except separate it from the existing dryer with a double pole double throw switch, so that they won't both be operable at the same time? Will I be complying with the intent of the NEC if I did that? Or will it be considered a sneak around? Your opinions appreciated as always. e/m.
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No! From what I've read no You just can't connect the existing circuit!

NFPA 05'
Read the Article 210 Branch Circuits

210.1 Scope.
This article covers branch circuits except for branch circuits that supply only motor loads, which are covered in in Article 430. Provisions of this article 430 apply to branch circuits with Combinations Loads.

I want you to know that I happen to have an star next to 210.23(A)(2),
first I thought shoot there up to thirty amps, ok that's right in reference to 210.23(A)(3).

It just kept rolling in my mind that something wasn't right.

It all great reading up on 210.24, which points back to 210.19, etc.

Frankly I thought I could post that against your OP with that to at least increase the size of the conductor but no. That really wasn't it.

I've seen other posts on 210.19 & 210.23, It is an eye opener to see a tap on some of these services, this one stuck with me more than others but so be it.

Frankly the motor and 125% was rolling around, Bingo its a MOTOR!

Tap is called out to see Branch Circuits 210.19(A) (per the index)
(ONE has to Go where the CODE sends one)

Article 220.16 Loads for Additions to existing Installations.

Article 220.18(A) Motor-Operated and Combination Loads. Where a circuit supplies only motor-operated loads, Article 430 shall apply...

The dryer would be a use of an electro-mechanical process thus under the definition of utilization (as said in index), so would the washer.
But if you want to hold to utilization equipment as a line of defense, keep 210.23(A)(2), 210.23(A)(3) in mind but they can't undermine a flat out declaration in 210.1 Scope.

In 430.7 Marking of Motors and Multi-motor Equipment.
Points out two important articles in respects to motors 430.24 and 430.53.
 
iwire said:
The NEC will allow it if each machine is less the 80% of the circuit.

I would be willing to bet they are.

See 210.23(B)
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I disagree.

210.23 states "In no case shall the load exceed the branch circuit amperage rating".

If I'm using one 30A circuit to feed (2) 5000 watt clothes dryers, then ...IMO... I've violated this rule.

This is a dedicated circuit with (fixed) connected loads that can be operated at the same time.
It's very possible...even probable that both of these dryers will be used at the same time.

I don't read anything in 210.23 that would allow this.

Just my opinion

steve
 
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