Dryers, Dryers, Dryers...

[LarryFine]

Bob, did you look at the red/green highlights I did a page or two back looking at 210.23?

I did:

(1) Cord-and-Plug-Connected Equipment Not Fastened in Place. The rating of any one cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment not fastened in place shall not exceed 80 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating.
(2) Utilization Equipment Fastened in Place. The total rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than luminaires (lighting fixtures), shall not exceed 50 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating where lighting units, cord-and- plug-connected utilization equipment not fastened in place, or both, are also supplied.

I agree that the red and green text combine to show that there can also be cord-and-plug-connected equipment that is fastened in place, and hard-wired equipment not fastened in place.

 

[GilbeSpark]

Let me ask you guys this: If an inspector made you do a load calculation on the house, would you include the 2nd dryer?

 

[Bob NH]

Bob, did you look at the red/green highlights I did a page or two back looking at 210.23?

Comparing apples to apples, we'd compare C&P connected to "directly connected".

"Fastened in place" means just that, fastened in place - it's not synonymous with "directly connected" (or "hardwired"). That's apples and oranges, IMO.

I missed that and do see it now.

Nevertheless, that requirement is found in 210.23(A)(2) which DOES NOT APPLY TO 30 AMP CIRCUITS.

210.23(B) applies to 30-ampere circuits and the ONLY requirement is that a rating of any one cord-and-plug connected utilization equipment shall not exceed 80 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating. It says nothing about "fastened-in-place".

210.23 also cites Table 210.24 which explicitly designates the Maximum Load as 30 Amps, and for the permissible load cites 210.23(B).

NOTHING in those citations prohibits multiple 30-ampere receptacles on a 30-ampere circuit.

 

[hillbilly]

NOTHING in those citations prohibits multiple 30-ampere receptacles on a 30-ampere circuit.

This discussion has gotten away from the original post.

As far as being allowed to put two 30 amp receptacles on a 30 amp circuit, I agree that it's OK and code compliant.

....but.....

The original post, and the reason for my objection, stated that the homeowner wanted to add another dryer to the existing circuit, while keeping the original dryer.

We're not talking about the number of receptacles, we're talking about electrical load.

I still say that installing a additional (fixed) load on a existing circuit while knowing that the additional load can and (most probably) will cause a circuit overload is a violation 210.23.

These (the OP's) are not general use receptacles, where the homeowner gets to decide what to plug in and where.

This is a dedicated system installed (to code?) by a electrician, that by reasonable expectation should have the capacity to operate all the (fixed) equipment connected to it without overloading the supply circuit....
This is only my opinion,
I may be wrong, but I'll always err on the side of safety.


steve

 

[LarryFine]

I still say that installing a additional (fixed) load on a existing circuit while knowing that the additional load can and (most probably) will cause a circuit overload is a violation 210.23.

This is a dedicated system installed (to code?) by a electrician, that by reasonable expectation should have the capacity to operate all the (fixed) equipment connected to it without overloading the supply circuit....

I won't disgaree with this last post, except that I don't consider the dryers to be "fixed" loads. They're certainly not continuous loads, because the heating elements cycle.

Making a compliant installation does not require asking the eventual user how many of each type of plug-in appliance they own, use, or expect to own or use in the future.

Our jurisdiction ends at the receptacle(s).

 

[stickboy1375]

Some threads just keep going.

 

[brother]

I won't disgaree with this last post, except that I don't consider the dryers to be "fixed" loads. They're certainly not continuous loads, because the heating elements cycle.

Making a compliant installation does not require asking the eventual user how many of each type of plug-in appliance they own, use, or expect to own or use in the future.

Our jurisdiction ends at the receptacle(s).

Hillbilly has hit the nail on th head!! This is about ELECTRICAL LOAD!! And the op KNOWS the actually load (2 dryers) to which it is intend for these 30 amp recepticles. So this would be violation. If the op did not know and it was just a general purpose, then it would not be a violation. Go head and read the whole article again, I wont type it all.

as 210.23 (2) has been stated,
........branch circuit ampere rating where lighting units, cord and plug connected utilitztion equipment NOT fastened in place , or BOTH, are also supplied

 

[George Stolz]

I think we all understand each other, and that's cool.

I also think we're all right. Therefore, this section will be the target of a few proposals from me (hopefully, if I get the time). We shouldn't be able to look at a section and get two totally different answers, that's bad code writing, IMO.

 

[ashtrak]

sub panel

sub panel

what about a sub panel??

 

[Energy-Miser]

what about a sub panel??

HO does not want to pay for the added cost (your know retirees, fixed income, etc...). e/m

 

[Energy-Miser]

I think we all understand each other, and that's cool.

I also think we're all right. Therefore, this section will be the target of a few proposals from me (hopefully, if I get the time). We shouldn't be able to look at a section and get two totally different answers, that's bad code writing, IMO.

Thanks George, great idea. I think the question has generated a lot of good discussion though. It was my original post, and I must say that I had no idea it would go into the high 80's posts when I first posted it. I read each of the responses with great interest, and must say that at times both sides of argument seem equally convincing !! . e/m.

 

[brother]

OH and I did not have time to write the OTHER article concerning dryers.

220.10 BRANCH CIRUIT LOADS SHALL be calculated as shown in 220.12, 220.14, and 220.16!!!


220.14 (A) Specific Appliances or loads. An outlet for a SPECIFIC appliance or other load not covered in 220.14(B) through (L) shall be calculated based on the AMPERE RATING of the appliance or LOAD SERVED.


220.52 Small Appliance and LAUNDRY LOADS -Dwelling unit

220.54 Electric Clothes Dryers-Dwelling Unit(s).
....The load for household electric clothes dryers in a dwelling unit shall be either 5000 watts or the NAMEPLATE RATING, whichever is larger, for EACH DRYER SERVED. The use of the DEMAND FACTORS in table 220.54 shall be permitted!! .....



So to RECONCILE these articles (even though some deal with FEEDER and SERVICE load calcs.) with 210.23, I would have to say it would be a VIOLATION to have 2 DRYERS on a single 30 amp circuit. With all due respect to georgestolz I really do not see a need to clarify that article when you reconcile others with it.

 

[George Stolz]

With all due respect to georgestolz I really do not see a need to clarify that article when you reconcile others with it.

No disrespect taken, but I still intend to submit a couple on this.