Duct Detectors

[JohnJ0906]

Generally speaking, who installs the duct detectors for a fire alarm system?

I was under the impression that the HVAC men install the detectors, and then we would wire them. However, on the job I am doing, the HVAC contractor says that it is not his job.

I am just wondering what the standard practice is.

 

[peter d]

In almost all the jobs I have been on the HVAC guy provided and installed it, and we wired it.

The way I see it, it's not our job to cut sheet metal.

 

[iwire]

I have seen it both ways, obviously better if they do it.

the HVAC contractor says that it is not his job.

But what do the contract documents say?

Never believe what your told on the job site.

I have gotten other trades to do my work by saying 'It's not my job' If they don't know what their job is who am I to correct them. :wink:

 

[JohnJ0906]

This job is a complete mad house, to be honest. HVAC guy is really just a residential tin banger - he can't even do his T-stats. "GC" is a friend or relative of the restaurant owner, so he isn't much better. There is no trade co-ordination. I may not know the best way to do things, but I am getting quite an education in the ways NOT to do them....

The contracts/specs might not mention them at all, meaning we get to do them. I'm just curious, and really would like dodge the bullet if I could....:wink:

 

[peter d]

The contracts/specs might not mention them at all, meaning we get to do them.

If they don't say explicitly that you MUST do them, then you should do as Bob says - "It's not my job."

 

[480sparky]

I've seen it done by both the MC and the EC.

If the documents state who installs them, then that's who installs them.

If no one is stated, then I add it into my bid. That way I know how they're done.

 

[JohnJ0906]

Thanks for the replys. :smile:

 

[dcspector]

Thanks for the replys. :smile:

Hey John, in DC it is a toss up, MC vs EC.....what I have found on testing, MC screwed it all up (Control wiring that is) and EC had to fix it for shut down.

 

[MJW]

Who supplied the detectors? If the MC supplied them you have a pretty good argument for them to install them. If you supplied them I would still try to get them to do the install.

 

[480sparky]

Who supplied the detectors? If the MC supplied them you have a pretty good argument for them to install them. If you supplied them I would still try to get them to do the install.

Many large projects specifically state who is to provide, who installs, who tests, and who warrants it. The devil's in the details on those jobs.

 

[iwire]

Many large projects specifically state who is to provide, who installs, who tests, and who warrants it. The devil's in the details on those jobs.

You bet.

I have even seen a "Responsability Matrix" on the print which is a fancy chart showing which party; specifies, purchase, ships, stores, moves, installs, wires, tests, warranty's etc and that was just for a Jo-Anns fabric and craft store.

 

[480sparky]

You bet.

I have even seen a "Responsability Matrix" on the print which is a fancy chart showing which party; specifies, purchase, ships, stores, moves, installs, wires, tests, warranty's etc and that was just for a Jo-Anns fabric and craft store.

I've seen my chare of those. Sometimes, I think they're just pulling subs out of a hat to see who does what.

Lessee.... water cooler. MC to supply, PC to install water & drain, EC to wire, MC to store, PC/EC to warranty, drywaller to test....

 

[iwire]

Sometimes, I think they're just pulling subs out of a hat to see who does what.

LOL :grin:

I agree.

 

[iwire]

Actually it was kind of funny, the matrix showed the EC (us) as responsible for off loading and erecting the prefab electric room.

Well the boss repeatedly tried to get the dimensions and the weight of this so he could get a price from the riggers we use, well he never was able to get the info so he put the bid in but excluded the rigging of the electric room.

My first day on the job the GC says "Hey your electric room is out in the parking lot you have to off load it"

I said 'check the contract'.......he was very upset and had to figure out how to unload a 8000 LB electric room from a low bow trailer. I went back to layout.:grin:

 

[480sparky]

Yea, I love being able to hit someone with something like that.

One project had two VFDs, big ones, for the air handlers. We (EC) did everything except supply them, that was the MC's responsibility.

They never checked the plans.

That was a 5-digit "Oops!" for them.

Bad part was, by the time they got to us, the mezzanine wasn't very conducive to hoists & cranes. It was a wrestling match, be we got them up the ships ladders and in through the door. Yes, we backcharged the MC for their, shall we say, 'tardiness'.

 

[iwire]

On the other hand I was involved with a commercial job that had a fairly expensive remote mounted chandler lift, well it was on the 'A' prints and it was overlooked.

The GC asks us to hurry up and get this thing installed so he could get the ceiling closed up.......DOH!

It was at least a month out so up went the ceiling and we had to install it after the fact. It was a nightmare and never worked smoothly. :roll:

 

[quogueelectric]

duct detectors

duct detectors

Duct detectors are no big deal to wire and mount 2- 1in holes and a 3/4 hole on the other side to hold the tube in sheet metal. I have installed thousands of them in the last 30 yrs. (If it is not in your bid dont do it for free). Unless they are going in a hard to get to spot where the ceiling is low and the roof is high. You dont want to get into a pissing match then find you have to wire and mount them After the finished ceiling is in. You can sometimes use the fact that the detectors must be servicable through the ceiling to get some cooperation from the gc when he is looking at installing a big ugly access door in the ceiling as leverage in the pissing match. Usually a remote led indicator must be installed below the unit also.

 

[MichaelGP3]

Duct detectors are no big deal to wire and mount 2- 1in holes and a 3/4 hole on the other side to hold the tube in sheet metal......

I disagree with this statement. There are rules for how far you need to be from a bend in the ductwork, rules for when a sampling tube needs to be supported inside the ductwork, how close they need to be from a rated wall, and we haven't talked about installing a duct smoke detector on a round section of duct or passing a magnahelic test. Accessibility is an issue since filters and the detectors themselves will need to be maintained.

Should contract documents specify that the EC installs the duct detectors, look for language in said documents to see who is responsible for WHERE the duct detector gets installed. This way, the EC isn't holding the bag if the duct detector won't pass a magnihelic test.

 

[480sparky]

I disagree with this statement. There are rules for how far you need to be from a bend in the ductwork, rules for when a sampling tube needs to be supported inside the ductwork, how close they need to be from a rated wall, and we haven't talked about installing a duct smoke detector on a round section of duct or passing a magnahelic test. Accessibility is an issue since filters and the detectors themselves will need to be maintained...

Last ones I installed, they weren't in a duct... they were in what I would call a NASA wind tunnel! Any unsuported tube would end up in the next county by the time the motors revved up to 75% capacity.

 

[MJW]

This job is a complete mad house, to be honest. HVAC guy is really just a residential tin banger - he can't even do his T-stats. "GC" is a friend or relative of the restaurant owner, so he isn't much better. There is no trade co-ordination. I may not know the best way to do things, but I am getting quite an education in the ways NOT to do them....

The contracts/specs might not mention them at all, meaning we get to do them. I'm just curious, and really would like dodge the bullet if I could....:wink:

Many large projects specifically state who is to provide, who installs, who tests, and who warrants it. The devil's in the details on those jobs.

Something tells me there is probably not a responsibility matrix on this job. If the specs dont mention them I sure wouldn't concede that they were my responsibility.