EC's doing engineering

[ron]

Just curious.
Some of the Electrical Contractor advertising signs around me in NY, NJ & CT indicate that they do engineering, in addition to electrical wiring for pools, lighting, etc..
Since the NEC gives prescriptive direction regarding certain wiring, grounding and many other applications, etc, does that equate to engineering in your state?
I think in NY, if you are not a PE, you cannot state that you perform engineering or else the State can get angry.
I admit that many EC's could probably run circles around some PE's regarding engineering, I was just curious with regard to the legalities of it.

 

[tkb]

I am not sure about each state but I think in MA that you can engineer a job if you do it your self.
You cannot just do engineering for hire though.

 

[LarryFine]

Here, as a Master Electrician, I can do engineering and make plans for submittal for buildings up to a certain size and/or type.

 

[ohm]

I've worked many years as a "lead designer" for $500M jobs and had EE-PE's working for me but if I ever said I was an engineer I would have been fired & jailed.

 

[BigDon]

In Connecticut, only licensed PE's can offer "professional engineering" services. If you come across EC's that offer engineering services you can first see if they are also registered as engineering firms

https://www.ask-dcp.ct.gov/lookup/SearchCriteria.asp?

Then, if unregistered, you may report them to the board with a copy of any advertisement:

http://www.ct.gov/dcp/cwp/view.asp?a=1624&Q=276072&PM=1

For a while last year, the state seemed to go after pool installation companies for offering pool design services after a young boy drowned after being sucked against the intake (it lacked a release mechanism). But that was a long time ago in the public's memory, and I believe that there are only 5 investigators in the whole Dept of Consumer Protection, so I don't think much would happen, if at all. Sometimes the law and reality are far apart. I don't know if you need to be a PE to offer selective coordination studies, arc flash studies, or even load calculations. The PE license and the state society, CTSPE, is relatively weak in CT compared to NY, CA, or TX.

 

[JohnJ0906]

Just curious.
Some of the Electrical Contractor advertising signs around me in NY, NJ & CT indicate that they do engineering, in addition to electrical wiring for pools, lighting, etc..
Since the NEC gives prescriptive direction regarding certain wiring, grounding and many other applications, etc, does that equate to engineering in your state?
I think in NY, if you are not a PE, you cannot state that you perform engineering or else the State can get angry.
I admit that many EC's could probably run circles around some PE's regarding engineering, I was just curious with regard to the legalities of it.

FWIW, I interviewed for an EC who was an EE - he employed a Master to pull the permits and directly supervise the field guys.

How much actual engineering he did, I do not know.

 

[ohm]

FWIW, I interviewed for an EC who was an EE - he employed a Master to pull the permits and directly supervise the field guys.

How much actual engineering he did, I do not know.

In Alabama, you can't even have the word "Engineering" on the side of your building unless you employ a registered PE, working in his/her discipline.

How long during a flight does an airline pilot actually work as a pilot? Take off's and landings?

If you think about it how often does anyone fully utilize their education or certification?

I asked a CE-PE friend just before he retired how often he used calculus during his career...he said never but he was one of the most valued, respected engineer I ever met.

 

[iaov]

Here, as a Master Electrician, I can do engineering and make plans for submittal for buildings up to a certain size and/or type.

It is the same here but I do not believe there is any size/type restriction. I'ld have to check on that to know for sure but for most things the State treats Master Electricians the same as Engineers.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Just curious.
Some of the Electrical Contractor advertising signs around me in NY, NJ & CT indicate that they do engineering, in addition to electrical wiring for pools, lighting, etc..
Since the NEC gives prescriptive direction regarding certain wiring, grounding and many other applications, etc, does that equate to engineering in your state?
I think in NY, if you are not a PE, you cannot state that you perform engineering or else the State can get angry.
I admit that many EC's could probably run circles around some PE's regarding engineering, I was just curious with regard to the legalities of it.

It is interesting that you bring this up.
There are tough times in our area, and there are some who will and are doing what it takes to get by. I am surprised at some, since getting caught in NY is not going to be a good thing for them.
I have also noticed that there are a few ECs who have employed EEs, but not many.

 

[growler]

Since the NEC gives prescriptive direction regarding certain wiring, grounding and many other applications, etc, does that equate to engineering in your state?
I think in NY, if you are not a PE, you cannot state that you perform engineering or else the State can get angry.

An EC is not an engineer but I'm guessing that even without an engineer on staff you could say that you have engineering services available ( not that you are an engineer) and then slide all the business in the direction of a licensed engineer. If you have an engineering outfit that you normally work with you probably could get a little better rates because of the amount of work you would send their way.

Why not just call one of these companies and find out what the deal is. They have probably found a way to cover themselves and not do any engineering work themselves.

 

[gra electric]

It is interesting that you bring this up.
There are tough times in our area, and there are some who will and are doing what it takes to get by. I am surprised at some, since getting caught in NY is not going to be a good thing for them.
I have also noticed that there are a few ECs who have employed EEs, but not many.

What does NY state consider illegal as far as engineering? Is a design build considered engineering? The reason i ask is because the U.S. Army Corp. of Engineers requests proposals for design builds for the barracks at Fort Drum, NY and West Point. Does the EC proposing these jobs have to employ a PE?

Gerry

 

[ohm]

What does NY state consider illegal as far as engineering? Is a design build considered engineering? The reason i ask is because the U.S. Army Corp. of Engineers requests proposals for design builds for the barracks at Fort Drum, NY and West Point. Does the EC proposing these jobs have to employ a PE?

Gerry

Most large projects require require a plan or drawing to be sealed.

Most PE's don't have time to spend more than a few minutes looking at what they seal. They rely almost 100% on the designers and CAD people, but they assume almost 100% of the liability.

Some companies hire young PE's to do nothing but seal drawings, which would cause me to loose sleep.

 

[infinity]

Most large projects require require a plan or drawing to be sealed.

Most PE's don't have time to spend more than a few minutes looking at what they seal. They rely almost 100% on the designers and CAD people, but they assume almost 100% of the liability.

Some companies hire young PE's to do nothing but seal drawings, which would cause me to loose sleep.

I agree. Usually the "Drawn By" and Checked By" initials on the drawing don't even match the guy signing off on them. The most recent project that I was involved with had drawings with numerous errors. It seems hard to believe that the "Checked By" person actually checked them at all.

 

[ohm]

I agree. Usually the "Drawn By" and Checked By" initials on the drawing don't even match the guy signing off on them. The most recent project that I was involved with had drawings with numerous errors. It seems hard to believe that the "Checked By" person actually checked them at all.

Very true infinity, the most feared words a checker wants to hear out of a designer is "I left something for the checker".

If it gets by the checker he's dead meat.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Here in CA an EC can draw any electrical plans as long as he's doing the job. He cannot however advertise as an engineer unless he is one.

 

[ron]

This is an interesting site from MD. http://www.dllr.state.md.us/license/prof_eng/disc.htm
Some states appear to be more on top of the issue.
and http://www.lrc.ky.gov/KRS/322-00/020.PDF

 

[petersonra]

I have run across a fair number of ECs that have PEs on staff. Does not seem that unusual to me.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

What does NY state consider illegal as far as engineering? Is a design build considered engineering? The reason i ask is because the U.S. Army Corp. of Engineers requests proposals for design builds for the barracks at Fort Drum, NY and West Point. Does the EC proposing these jobs have to employ a PE?

Gerry

Engineers in NYS are required to be licensed.

I cannot answer about West Point, that is the government, and they have different regulations. I would not be surprised if the regs are more strict.

 

[cpal]

I am not sure about each state but I think in MA that you can engineer a job if you do it your self.
You cannot just do engineering for hire though.

In Mass.
One of the state laws (XXX 81-R) allows a licensed professional to do "design build" on those building systems covered by there professional license. This is limiteed by the cubic feet of the building.

 

[BigDon]

This is an interesting site from MD. http://www.dllr.state.md.us/license/prof_eng/disc.htm
Some states appear to be more on top of the issue.

It's interesting that the website only lists 12 disciplinary actions totaling only$35,500 since 2001. I think that our electrical board issues that many fines in 6 months.