EGC AS A RETURN PATH TO PREVENT ELECTROCUTION IN SOLIDLY GROUNDED SYSTEM

Status
Not open for further replies.

bobby ocampo

Senior Member
As a side note, there was no censorship of the previous posts on this topic.
Yes, previous threads have been closed, but their contents are still available for viewing.
We ask all participants to follow the rules of this forum.
What rule have I violated to close the topic? One of my post with HRG was closed without allowing participants to comment first. We have to be open minded and Let's have an attitude to be open and let others prove us wrong. I am always open to be proven wrong with enough evidence.
 

Fred B

Senior Member
Location
Upstate, NY
Occupation
Electrician
Sounds like someone is trying to make a case to not have an EGC between the estentially sub-panel and the primary or first overcurrent device given repeated questioning "is it safe" in multiple threads.
The illustration is showing no EGC between the first overcurrent device and the second panel that has a fault shown. While earth is not a "good" conductor, the corner grounded to earth and absence of an EGC, and the variable conditions not included in the illustration, a conclusion as to safety not fully able to be determined. It would thus be justified to conclude that such condition should be assumed to be a hazzard.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
At low voltages, those below 600V, the earth is considered a poor conductor and therefore incapable of conducting enough current to reliably operate an OCPD as small as 15A.
IEEE80 applies to grounding in substations, where voltages exceed 2400V, and the earth is considered a conductor capable of conducting current.

An equipment bonding conductor's primary purpose is to bond conductive sources together in order to reduce touch potential between surfaces.
Electrocution can occur at extremely low voltages, typically over 48V, dependent upon several factors including the health of the individual.
He was already told that in this thread from 2008
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
Corner grounded is normally in industrial and commercial applications. In residential, supplied transformer by the utility is normally one leg with center tap delta transformer. Small residential is normally single phase 2 wire or single phase 3 wire. Thanks for your answer.

I hope that this topic will not be censored
Most of us here know what a corner ground is. The use in this area is Ag irrigation. Wet, poorly maintained. Many dating back to the 50s. VD does come into play. Electrocution is no different with the corner ground than a single phase service if the low parameter is 48V.
 

bobby ocampo

Senior Member
At low voltages, those below 600V, the earth is considered a poor conductor and therefore incapable of conducting enough current to reliably operate an OCPD as small as 15A.
IEEE80 applies to grounding in substations, where voltages exceed 2400V, and the earth is considered a conductor capable of conducting current.
There are substations with low voltage as secondary. 1.5MVA 34.5 primary and 240 volts secondary. Same design criteria in IEEE 80 applies to prevent electric shock on touch and step potential inside the substation. Short circuits have high current approaching 100KA depending on the source substations. Earth is always considered conductor and the object is to reduce the resistance of the earth in the substation to lower step potential. For the meantime, I want to concentrate first with my first illustration so we we can step by step illustrate EGC and connection to earth.
Resistance of the earth is improved with proper grounding in accordance with IEEE 80
An equipment bonding conductor's primary purpose is to bond conductive sources together in order to reduce touch potential between surfaces.
AGREE. and should be connected to earth that will serve as the zero potential to prevent electrocution. Not connected to earth is dangerous or connected to some conducting body that serves in replacement to the earth.
Electrocution can occur at extremely low voltages, typically over 48V, dependent upon several factors including the health of the individual.
The voltage use in calculation in IEEE 80 is to lower touch and step potential to 50 volts or less.
Please back read on my first Illustration and conclution based on my discussion with Mr. Petersonra.
 

bobby ocampo

Senior Member
He was already told that in this thread from 2008
BAck read first. Be open minded first. What you know may be wrong. Or I may be wrong. 240 volts or 120 volts is still high and may cause electric shock or electrocution. BACK READ and seem my first exhibit and discussion with Senior member Mr. Petersonra
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
There are substations with low voltage as secondary. 1.5MVA 34.5 primary and 240 volts secondary.
In these cases IEEE80 applies because of the 34.5kV and that it is open air exposed conductors. An industrial unit substation, where the primary and secondary are both metal enclosed and close coupled is not subject to IEEE80 even if it is installed outdoors.

Do not try to understand NEC grounding and bonding requirements by reading IEEE80.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
BAck read first. Be open minded first. What you know may be wrong. Or I may be wrong. 240 volts or 120 volts is still high and may cause electric shock or electrocution. BACK READ and seem my first exhibit and discussion with Senior member Mr. Petersonra
Have you "back read" the thread from 2008? Why would you think LV and MV rules have changed since then?

Here is another thread from 2008 to read through.
 

bobby ocampo

Senior Member
In these cases IEEE80 applies because of the 34.5kV and that it is open air exposed conductors. An industrial unit substation, where the primary and secondary are both metal enclosed and close coupled is not subject to IEEE80 even if it is installed outdoors.

Do not try to understand NEC grounding and bonding requirements by reading IEEE80.
Let's stick first to my first exhibit then I will prove later. Please back read. Let's discuss again same discussion with Mr Petersonra.
Illustration shows corner solidly grounded system. Will the person touching the metal panel be electrocuted assume that the metal panel is near the transformer.
 

Attachments

  • CORNER GROUNDED DELTA SOLIDLY GROUNDED EXHIBIT 1.jpg
    CORNER GROUNDED DELTA SOLIDLY GROUNDED EXHIBIT 1.jpg
    66.9 KB · Views: 5

bobby ocampo

Senior Member
Have you "back read" the thread from 2008? Why would you think LV and MV rules have changed since then?

Here is another thread from 2008 to read through.
Lets discuss one issue at a time so we can have a conclusion. See attachment because you don't want to back read concentrate with this post so we will have a direction.
Based on the illustration will the person touching the panel be electrocuted? Assume low voltage 480 volts corner solidly grounded delta. One illustration at a time.
You have censored my complete illustration in the other topic. Be open minded. Let's have a discussion and I am looking forward to proving me wrong
 

Attachments

  • CORNER GROUNDED DELTA SOLIDLY GROUNDED EXHIBIT 1.jpg
    CORNER GROUNDED DELTA SOLIDLY GROUNDED EXHIBIT 1.jpg
    66.9 KB · Views: 2

bobby ocampo

Senior Member
In these cases IEEE80 applies because of the 34.5kV and that it is open air exposed conductors. An industrial unit substation, where the primary and secondary are both metal enclosed and close coupled is not subject to IEEE80 even if it is installed outdoors.

Do not try to understand NEC grounding and bonding requirements by reading IEEE80.
The secondary voltage is low voltage and touch potential and step potential are based on resistance and current. The short circuit line to ground fault in low voltage is very high. With high current and resistance of the ground step potential is also large. However let's discuss one case at a time so we can explain the purpose of connecting to earth and EGC.
I have attached the first exhibit illustration.
Based on this illustration will the person touching the metal panel near the transformer be electrocuted assuming that the line to line voltage is 480 volts?
Let's discuss one issue a time so we can have a conclusion.
 

Attachments

  • CORNER GROUNDED DELTA SOLIDLY GROUNDED EXHIBIT 1.jpg
    CORNER GROUNDED DELTA SOLIDLY GROUNDED EXHIBIT 1.jpg
    66.9 KB · Views: 3

bobby ocampo

Senior Member
Most of us here know what a corner ground is. The use in this area is Ag irrigation. Wet, poorly maintained. Many dating back to the 50s. VD does come into play. Electrocution is no different with the corner ground than a single phase service if the low parameter is 48V.
Let's discuss one issue at a time. Attached is my first exhibit illustration.

Will the person touching the metal panel be electrocuted if the line to line voltage of the delta solidly coner grounded is 480volts
 

Attachments

  • CORNER GROUNDED DELTA SOLIDLY GROUNDED EXHIBIT 1.jpg
    CORNER GROUNDED DELTA SOLIDLY GROUNDED EXHIBIT 1.jpg
    66.9 KB · Views: 2

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Based on this illustration will the person touching the metal panel near the transformer be electrocuted assuming that the line to line voltage is 480 volts?
This has been answered multiple times over multiple threads.
It is time for you to provide your thoughts.
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Seemingly, to me, the thread is somewhat moot (other than allowing you to bloviate) as the NEC requires the enclosure be connected by a equipment grounding conductor. We all recognized that ungrounded equipment poses a shock hazard and, as FredB poi9nts out in Post 28, the potential is dependent on various factors.
The potential is there, thus the requirement to have equipment grounding and bonding means. It seems a bit fruitles to discuss it to no end.
 

bobby ocampo

Senior Member
This has been answered multiple times over multiple threads.
It is time for you to provide your thoughts.
I wonder why you don't want to back read the discussion with Mr Petersonra.
Now discussing it with you and you don't want to answer. We have already arrived with a conclusion in this first illustration.
 

bobby ocampo

Senior Member
Seemingly, to me, the thread is somewhat moot (other than allowing you to bloviate) as the NEC requires the enclosure be connected by a equipment grounding conductor. We all recognized that ungrounded equipment poses a shock hazard and, as FredB poi9nts out in Post 28, the potential is dependent on various factors.
The potential is there, thus the requirement to have equipment grounding and bonding means. It seems a bit fruitles to discuss it to no end.
It will be difficult if you don't what to discuss this topic one illustration at a time. Let's resolve it one issue at a time. I have discuss this with Mr. Petersonra and he already agreed.
Now attached is the illustration. Will the person touching the metal panel be electrocuted if the Line to line voltage is 480 volts. Answer the question so we can have a conclusion.
 

Attachments

  • CORNER GROUNDED DELTA SOLIDLY GROUNDED EXHIBIT 1.jpg
    CORNER GROUNDED DELTA SOLIDLY GROUNDED EXHIBIT 1.jpg
    66.9 KB · Views: 4

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
(my last post). electrocution is defined as "death by electricity". As noted by others, there is potential for shock from any ungrounded (bonded) enclosure...the potential is dependent on various factors.
To keep from being "censored" (your term), please follow jim's; advice from above:

This has been answered multiple times over multiple threads.
It is time for you to provide your thoughts.
 

bobby ocampo

Senior Member
(my last post). electrocution is defined as "death by electricity". As noted by others, there is potential for shock from any ungrounded (bonded) enclosure...the potential is dependent on various factors.
To keep from being "censored" (your term), please follow jim's; advice from above:

This has been answered multiple times over multiple threads.
It is time for you to provide your thoughts.
You are not answering. I have provided my thoughts with our discussion with Mr Petersonra. Howver you don't want to read
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top