EGC wire and metal boxes

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crossman

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2008 NEC 250.148(C) Metal Boxes

"A connection shall be made between the one or more equipment grounding conductors and a metal box by means of a grounding screw that shall be used for no other purpose, equipment listed for grounding, or a listed grounding device."

Say we have a run of EMT and metal boxes with a green equipment grounding conductor pulled in it. The circuit conductors are spliced in every box. Does the green EGC wire have to be attached to each box directly at the box? Or could you just make a splice on the EGC wire in the box?

Would love to hear some thoughts. Read the section very carefully...
 
I'll play. Can you guess where this quote comes from?

Where a metal box is used in a metal raceway system and there is a wire-type equipment grounding conductor installed in the raceway, it is not required that the wire-type equipment grounding conductor be connected to the pull box, provided the box is effectively grounded by the metal raceway and the circuit conductors are not spliced or terminated to equipment in the metal box. An example of this provision would be where conductors are run unbroken through a pull box.
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BTW, I bond the box on these systems be they 1900's or big pull boxes that require lugs.

I see a few newbies here and would like to state that this whole post is opinion and not enforceable.
 
Well, I guess the quote is either from the handbook, or from someone at this forum.

However, the quote doesn't apply to the situation I presented. The circuit conductors are spliced in every box. So does the EGC wire have to be attached to every box, directly at the box?
 
chris kennedy said:
I'll play. Can you guess where this quote comes from?


I see a few newbies here and would like to state that this whole post is opinion and not enforceable.
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Chris, is that a Holt quote?

Seems familiar.
 
crossman said:
The circuit conductors are spliced in every box. So does the EGC wire have to be attached to every box, directly at the box?
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I read it carefully as you suggested and my answer is yes.

First sentence of 250.148
 
crossman said:
...does the EGC wire have to be attached to every box, directly at the box?
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No, IMO, if I understand correctly what you are asking... which is, in other words, "must the equipment grounding conductors exiting and entering raceways at a metal box be connected directly to the grounding screw,equipment, or device?" The requirement states "a connection shall be made between" this and that, which a wire can provide.
 
yep except when no other conductors are spliced or attached then the wire must be continuous. I got hit by an inspector here. I told him we ran out of a roll and had to splice he said only if hot and neutral are spliced.
 
Okay, let me restate the scenario:

A 20 amp branch circuit is run with #12 circuit conductors and a #12 Equipment Grounding Conductor in 1/2" EMT. The EMT begins at the panel enclosure which is metal. There is a 1900 box between the panel and the load end of the circuit. In the 1900 box, the circuit conductors are spliced. The EGC wire is only spliced in the box - it does not have a wire attached to the box.

Code violation or not?
 
kid_stevens said:
yep except when no other conductors are spliced or attached then the wire must be continuous. I got hit by an inspector here. I told him we ran out of a roll and had to splice he said only if hot and neutral are spliced.
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I would love to see a Code section on that! What if one of the circuit conductors is continuous but the other circuit conductor is spliced? What then???

Please don't let this hi-jack my thread!!!
 
crossman said:
Okay, let me restate the scenario:

A 20 amp branch circuit is run with #12 circuit conductors and a #12 Equipment Grounding Conductor in 1/2" EMT. The EMT begins at the panel enclosure which is metal. There is a 1900 box between the panel and the load end of the circuit. In the 1900 box, the circuit conductors are spliced. The EGC wire is only spliced in the box - it does not have a wire attached to the box.

Code violation or not?
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Violation.
 
crossman said:
2008 NEC 250.148(C) Metal Boxes

"A connection shall be made between the one or more equipment grounding conductors and a metal box by means of a grounding screw that shall be used for no other purpose, equipment listed for grounding, or a listed grounding device."

Say we have a run of EMT and metal boxes with a green equipment grounding conductor pulled in it. The circuit conductors are spliced in every box. Does the green EGC wire have to be attached to each box directly at the box? Or could you just make a splice on the EGC wire in the box?

Would love to hear some thoughts. Read the section very carefully...
Click to expand...


My immediate response would be,..."Why not, or why avoid it?" Time=$, yes, material as well, but why solely rely on the raceway itself when you can take it a notch further? My response is NOT based on code but none the less ethic. That's how I run it, and I am not one to base any opinion on, that's just me. Just my -2cents:cool:
 
crossman said:
I would love to see a Code section on that! What if one of the circuit conductors is continuous but the other circuit conductor is spliced? What then???

Please don't let this hi-jack my thread!!!
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If the inspector here says it then bang you lose.
 
Okay, let's play English Language major and decipher the Code section:

2008 NEC 250.148(C) Metal Boxes - "A connection shall be made between the one or more equipment grounding conductors and a metal box by means of a grounding screw that shall be used for no other purpose, equipment listed for grounding, or a listed grounding device."

Breaking this down based on the or which I highlighted above:

There are three choices listed for grounding the box to the EGC wire. Because of the "or" used with the choices, we only have to use one of the choices to be code compliant. So the code section goes as follows:

"A connection shall be made between the one or more equipment grounding conductors and a metal box by means of:

1) a grounding screw that shall be used for no other purpose,
2) equipment listed for grounding,
or
3) a listed grounding device."

So... 2) equipment listed for grounding can be used for grounding the box. I propose that EMT and fittings are equipment listed for grounding, and the box is indeed connected to the #12 EGC wire through this listed equipment.

The #12 wire is attached to the metal panel enclosure, the box is attached to the panel enclosure via the EMT, so there ya go. I don't see that 250.148 or 250.148(C) require the connection to be made INSIDE the box.

The main part of 250.148 also involves an "or" and gives us an alternative to bonding inside the box... it allows other methods based on 250.148(C).

And the EMT meets that.
 
76nemo said:
but why solely rely on the raceway itself when you can take it a notch further? My response is NOT based on code but none the less ethic. That's how I run it,
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Take it up a notch? So let's run plasti-bond rigid metallic conduit then. Instead of flimsy a$$ 1900 boxes, let's go with explosion-proof cast boxes. Instead of gimpy #12, let's take this puppy up a notch to #8. Better yet, let's go with MI cable!

I just want to argue code, not ethics!!!:grin:
 
crossman said:
Take it up a notch? So let's run plasti-bond rigid metallic conduit then. Instead of flimsy a$$ 1900 boxes, let's go with explosion-proof cast boxes. Instead of gimpy #12, let's take this puppy up a notch to #8. Better yet, let's go with MI cable!

I just want to argue code, not ethics!!!:grin:
Click to expand...


I am sorry, you made that clear from the get go. I did not want to derail the thread in any matter. Sorry crossman......
 
crossman said:
Okay, let's play English Language major and decipher the Code section:

2008 NEC 250.148(C) Metal Boxes - "A connection shall be made between the one or more equipment grounding conductors and a metal box by means of a grounding screw that shall be used for no other purpose, equipment listed for grounding, or a listed grounding device."

Breaking this down based on the or which I highlighted above:

There are three choices listed for grounding the box to the EGC wire. Because of the "or" used with the choices, we only have to use one of the choices to be code compliant. So the code section goes as follows:

"A connection shall be made between the one or more equipment grounding conductors and a metal box by means of:

1) a grounding screw that shall be used for no other purpose,
2) equipment listed for grounding,
or
3) a listed grounding device."

So... 2) equipment listed for grounding can be used for grounding the box. I propose that EMT and fittings are equipment listed for grounding, and the box is indeed connected to the #12 EGC wire through this listed equipment.

The #12 wire is attached to the metal panel enclosure, the box is attached to the panel enclosure via the EMT, so there ya go. I don't see that 250.148 or 250.148(C) require the connection to be made INSIDE the box.

The main part of 250.148 also involves an "or" and gives us an alternative to bonding inside the box... it allows other methods based on 250.148(C).

And the EMT meets that.
Click to expand...

I agree with Crossman wholeheartedly on this. If the circuit has an approved and appropriate Equiptment Ground, the EMT, why would it be mandatory bond the green #12 at the 1900 to the box? Isn't that redundant and unnecessary?
 
crossman said:
The main part of 250.148 also involves an "or" and gives us an alternative to bonding inside the box... it allows other methods based on 250.148(C).

And the EMT meets that.
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If EMT meets you needs why are you running a grounding conductor? :wink:

Don't install it and you have no more problems.

Where in this section 250.148 does it even refer to metal raceways as having anything to do with this? If were going to play english major......

This has nothing to do with type of raceway, or cable or whatever. Read not more into it than is there. Simple.
 
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