# Electric circuit

#### LarryFine

##### Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
So what does that have to do with what a conductor is called? I don't get what you are trying to say.
He was being snarky. He's referring to the flow of electrons in alternating current..

#### roger

##### Moderator
Staff member
So, if a neutral conductor is a conductor that is not made to have current on it, why is it there? That kind of throws me and makes me lean toward the NEC's definition. Which, BTW, is the law in most parts.
It is suppose to have current on it, once again, with a single load it's just part of a series circuit and is not a neutral conductor, it is only a neutral conductor in the NEC's definition.

Roger

#### K8MHZ

##### Senior Member
He was being snarky. He's referring to the flow of electrons in alternating current..
Thanks, but I don't see how that affects the way conductors are named. Especially when they are named and someone is arguing that the name given is wrong.

#### K8MHZ

##### Senior Member
It is suppose to have current on it, once again, with a single load it's just part of a series circuit and is not a neutral conductor, it is only a neutral conductor in the NEC's definition.

Roger
Then show me a different definition. PLEASE!!! I even looked for myself. And I don't mean definitions from posters on forums.

#### roger

##### Moderator
Staff member
Thanks, but I don't see how that affects the way conductors are named. Especially when they are named and someone is arguing that the name given is wrong.
OK, to help you out, change the windings in the drawing to a battery (DC) and then what do you call the two conductors going to and from the load.

Roger

#### K8MHZ

##### Senior Member
I found this from 2003

#### roger

##### Moderator
Staff member
Then show me a different definition. PLEASE!!! I even looked for myself. And I don't mean definitions from posters on forums.
In the illustration I would call it a grounded conductor.

Roger

#### Fred B

##### Senior Member
I'm looking for a diagram that shows how the electricity flows from the circuit breaker through the load.... To explain to an apprentice how a single phase circuit works.

Thanks

If Im here asking...obviously I'm not confident my electrical theory....power goes from circuit breaker....then through load....goes back on neutral to the utility transformer?
If you have an apprentice and you're not confident I suggest you perhaps get yourself some added education like that provided through Mike Holt.com
https://www.mikeholt.com/productitem.php?id=999&year=ALL&from=All&type=DVD+Program

1 for you and one for your apprentice. I got one even though been doing this work for a long time and training from other sources, found it very informative and got an even a clearer understanding of things I thought I new. A lot of what we do is the mechanics, but learning the why takes you from an electrical mechanic to an electrician. Your question is covered in detail in the course as well as nice drawings. He also has many free videos on a variety of topics, basic to advanced discussions as well as safety considerations. All very well produced and educational.
The forum is great but no substitute for a solid background.
We all come across things in our work day that may not have encountered before (unless your one of the old timers here that's been doing electrical work since Ben Franklin, lol) and the forum is great for that. And these guys/gals here on the forum should be credited for there willingness to share their expertise, and thanks to Mike for providing this forum. And Thanks to all.

#### K8MHZ

##### Senior Member
OK, to help you out, change the windings in the drawing to a battery (DC) and then what do you call the two conductors going to and from the load.

Roger
Apples to oranges.

Still waiting for a link.

#### roger

##### Moderator
Staff member
Apples to oranges.
Why do you say that, current leaves and returns to source in both systems.

Still waiting for a link.
Well don't hold your breath.

BTW, I was in that thread from 2003

Roger

#### K8MHZ

##### Senior Member
I provided the source of my definition, a definition that, at least where I sit, has the force of law. I have been told that I am wrong, not to go by that definition. I don't think that's good advice.

I asked for links in order to be convinced the NEC should be ignored. So far, nothing.

#### K8MHZ

##### Senior Member
Why do you say that, current leaves and returns to source in both systems.

Roger

Because the names of DC conductors have been long established and you know as well as I do that those names do not parallel the names we give alternating current conductors. Perhaps they should, but they don't.

#### roger

##### Moderator
Staff member
I provided the source of my definition, a definition that, at least where I sit, has the force of law. I have been told that I am wrong, not to go by that definition. I don't think that's good advice.

I asked for links in order to be convinced the NEC should be ignored. So far, nothing.
You can use the NEC definition, nobody is telling you not to but theory says it is not a neutral, a true neutral would look like this.

Roger

#### roger

##### Moderator
Staff member
So you are saying if it's not a MWBC, there can be no neutral?
Exactly, as I have said in a two wire circuit both wires carry the same current, add another conductor to the other end of the winding and share the grounded conductor you now have a neutral, here's another look at it.

Roger

#### K8MHZ

##### Senior Member
Exactly, as I have said in a two wire circuit both wires carry the same circuit, add another conductor to the other end of the winding and share the grounded conductor you now have a neutral, here's another look at it.

View attachment 2554542

Roger
OK, great. I understand your definition. No MWBC, no neutral. That changes nothing as I don't know you to be the person that defines electrical terms we must abide by. That is why I asked for links. If you would provide some, it wouldn't look so much like you are making up your own definitions. No offense.

#### roger

##### Moderator
Staff member
OK, great. I understand your definition. No MWBC, no neutral. That changes nothing as I don't know you to be the person that defines electrical terms we must abide by. That is why I asked for links. If you would provide some, it wouldn't look so much like you are making up your own definitions. No offense.
Where do you get the idea I'm trying to force definitions on anyone? The illustrations are showing how the current numbers work and if you can't see that you are either just trying to be dumb or argumentative. The NEC is looking for away to asign names for code purposes and must give a name to something. That was not what the OP was asking for, note this is in the "Education" forum, not in the NEC forum. If the OP wants the real definition he does in fact need to look somewhere besides the NEC.

Roger

#### Hv&Lv

##### Senior Member
I didn’t read or look at all the posts...

#### Fred B

##### Senior Member
OK, great. I understand your definition. No MWBC, no neutral. That changes nothing as I don't know you to be the person that defines electrical terms we must abide by. That is why I asked for links. If you would provide some, it wouldn't look so much like you are making up your own definitions. No offense.
Ok, @K8MHZ here is one from the dictionary. AFAICS it is essentially no different than what Roger has been saying. And just a simplified form of NEC definition.