Electrical tape inside a panel

[paulengr]

I just love tracing out a circuit, opening a panel, and seeing tie wraps bundling wires on both sides of the panel and top spaced every two inches.

Most rules of thumb with panel builders call for zip ties every 4-6”.

The old technique is bundling with cord. This typically had a loop and knot every 2” tied tightly. Virtually impossible to hand trace through it. Zip ties and Panduit replaced cord. I still do this with only a few wires or around components. If you put a zip tie right at the bend you can even make MTW look like XHHW (perfect 90 degree bends) if it’s tight. A good panel builder cuts all the wires long and loosely applies zip ties for routing. Then once a section is done cinch them all tight. By components it might have a zip tie every couple inches. Add some at corners and branches to hold the shape. Add one every 4-6” with sticky backs as needed to keep it straight. Everything should be parallel or perpendicular to components. Cut exactly to length at the other end. If done correctly it looks perfect but hand tracing is a total nightmare, just as with cord. Properly tightened zip ties (with a tool) will be so tight that the wire won’t move so again, gotta cut to trace.

You can tie wire inside Panduit but the whole point of Panduit is no tying so it should be loose in there. MUCH easier to trace it out. But I still hate the stuff.

 

[roger]

That’s IF you can pass the neat and workmanlike requirement. That is Code but often not followed.

Even if it's not followed it is pretty much unenforceable and the NEC Style Manual even includes it in "Possibly Unenforceable and Vague Terms"

Roger

 

[infinity]

@LarryFine

Beet me to it. Far as I know there is no requirement to bundle, with or without tape or wire ty's or to mark any wires other than for phasing

Actually there is a requirement, Texie provided the code section when it may be required. This requirement is not for neatness.

 

[paulengr]

Actually there is a requirement, Texie provided the code section when it may be required. This requirement is not for neatness.

That’s taped individually, not together. I work at a motor shop. I’m more likely to have brown, orange, and yellow tape in my bag than black!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[paulengr]

Even if it's not followed it is pretty much unenforceable and the NEC Style Manual even includes it in "Possibly Unenforceable and Vague Terms"

Roger

They refer to the NECA 100 book in the informational note. There are several specific things in there. It talks about storing materials properly with details for instance. There is a lot of “fluff” in there. The one that stands out is making all the entries into neat and even rows instead of running them wherever they fit.

As far as enforceable, this goes back to dealing with an inspectors opinion vs. Code. You can challenge an opinion but you do so at your peril. Yes, ask to cite the Code section. But fighting city hall in general is a no win situation even if Code agrees with you.

But most of my business is repeat. Most of the glaring violations of neat and workmanlike come from customer maintenance. It takes maybe 5 minutes to vacuum out a panel and clean all the dead fuses and components, dirt, spit bottles, and other outright garbage out. Then 5 minutes to wiggle the wiring and put it back in the Panduits or replace the tie wraps and make it look like it should. Customers do notice this stuff.

 

[infinity]

That’s taped individually, not together. I work at a motor shop. I’m more likely to have brown, orange, and yellow tape in my bag than black!

That's incorrect, the section that Texie posted {200.4(B)} and I referenced is for grouping when there is more than one circuit neutral in a raceway.

 

[Greentagger]

Agreed. 200.4(B) clearly states they will be grouped.

 

[roger]

As far as enforceable, this goes back to dealing with an inspectors opinion vs. Code. You can challenge an opinion but you do so at your peril. Yes, ask to cite the Code section. But fighting city hall in general is a no win situation even if Code agrees with you.

No, in NC you don't have to deal with city hall, you can call the state head electrical inspector at the DOI but back to the original question, it is dealing with identifying MWBC's and you need to read the section pointed out. However you choose to identify them as groups is up to you but bundling each MWBC leaving the same conduit or raceway with a piece of tape or wire tie is acceptable.

Mike used to have an illustration showing it but it is no longer available in the graphics.

Roger

 

[hbeery10]

That's incorrect, the section that Texie posted {200.4(B)} and I referenced is for grouping when there is more than one circuit neutral in a raceway.

This is exactly what we were doing, grouping multiple neutrals in a conduit with their respective circuit conductor. Actually, I like to both tape the pair together when it comes into the panel and put circuit tags on both the hot and neutral conductors at the point of termination.

The electrician that told me I couldn’t use tape to group circuit pairs in a panel is one of those guys that runs 100 mph and doesn’t like being told he’s wrong, you know the type. In this case it wasn’t worth the fight but I know I don’t know everything and wanted to make sure I wasn’t wrong in using tape in a panel.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[infinity]

This is exactly what we were doing, grouping multiple neutrals in a conduit with their respective circuit conductor. Actually, I like to both tape the pair together when it comes into the panel and put circuit tags on both the hot and neutral conductors at the point of termination.

The electrician that told me I couldn’t use tape to group circuit pairs in a panel is one of those guys that runs 100 mph and doesn’t like being told he’s wrong, you know the type. In this case it wasn’t worth the fight but I know I don’t know everything and wanted to make sure I wasn’t wrong in using tape in a panel.

He needs to slow down a bit because he's wrong.

We always use numbers on the conductors which negates the requirement for the tape or zip tie.

 

[electricman2]

I actually don't. I rarely ever bundle in panels.

Me neither. Never saw any need to.

 

[kwired]

It says identified or grouped, and gives cable ties and tape as two possible examples, but there is other ways to get it done.

 

[kwired]

I actually don't. I rarely ever bundle in panels.

Solid conductors I rarely do, that is mostly when using AC or NM cables though. I prefer to pull stranded conductors as much as possible for raceway installs. Sometimes you need to use a few ties to tame them a little, but I go somewhat minimal with those ties compared to some people.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

That’s IF you can pass the neat and workmanlike requirement. That is Code but often not followed.

Not very often cited because even the NEC Style Manual says that the term "neat and workmanlike" is vague and possibly unenforceable.

 

[Little Bill]

I don't deal much with MWBC anymore but if you do any new wiring/new construction, you have to keep the neutral together with the hot due to the AFCI/GFCI breakers. What I do is cut a piece of sheathing about an inch long and slip both wires through it. You could do the same for MWBC if you want. I also use a piece of sheathing to identify the circuits. Slip it on the hot and write on the sheath what it is.

 

[Jerramundi]

I actually don't. I rarely ever bundle in panels.

Just a thought... wouldn't it technically be best to keep the hot and neutral paired together, and thus "bundle," for as long as you can, to encourage cancellation of the magnetic fields.. that is, until separation is truly merited and you have to land them in their respect locations? That's how I've always thought about it... and I've definitely used my fair share of both zip-ties and electrical tape to accomplish this. Never been questioned on it either.

Sometimes, I play around and find the bundling of all neutrals once they enter the enclosure to be aesthetically pleasing, but I've never done it and just stick w/ what I was taught (i.e. using electrical tape for circuit pairing).

 

[LarryFine]

What I do is cut a piece of sheathing about an inch long and slip both wires through it. You could do the same for MWBC if you want. I also use a piece of sheathing to identify the circuits. Slip it on the hot and write on the sheath what it is.

I label the NM sheath during rough-in, then cut that section to re-use during trim.

 

[K8MHZ]

I label the NM sheath during rough-in, then cut that section to re-use during trim.

View attachment 2555155

Nice work!! Did it make you grind your teeth to have to put one single cable up through the bottom? Still looks good though.

 

[LarryFine]

Nice work!! Did it make you grind your teeth to have to put one single cable up through the bottom? Still looks good though.

Thanx! I pull all of the conductors out, push the EGCs back and land them first, then the same with the grounded conductors.

It really takes no longer than sloppy work, makes circuit tracing easy, the panel look like it's almost empty, and no wire ties.

That lone cable feeds the GFCI receptacle, and I put that circuit in last. No, it doesn't really bother me . . . now.

 

[ritelec]

I label the NM sheath during rough-in, then cut that section to re-use during trim.

Yes nice work, but respectfully, personally I prefer to leave at bit more wire in the panel than that. I see panels cut in like that all the time but if I want to rework something I hate having to splice. Or playing games when it was cut in like this and I'm doing a panel change and the wires aren't long enough. Oh well.