No supervisor/foreman in your company?
Eliminating Buddy Requirement
- Thread starter Cat Fan
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
It doesn't matter, apprentices or trainees are not permitted to do live work, no matter how many qualified people are there watching the work.No supervisor/foreman in your company?
- Location
- Massachusetts
A person who has already had training in a subject, and has demonstrated their knowledge of a subject is not a 'novice'.
No supervisor/foreman in your company?
I am both depending on my current assignment.
If I have live work to do another licensed person, with specific safety training along with a record of good judgement would be sent to work with me. No trainees, apprentices or novices would be considered.
Understand live work is very small percentage of what we do. The vast majority of the time the work is done dead. This is the time we use to train novices.
I mean the trainer doing the live work while the trainees are there watching the work and helping him to do the work and also doing the work along with him. The IEEE rule below does not ban it, as those trainees are considered 'qualified' by it.
IEEE C2 (2012)
Qualified: Having been trained in and having demonstrated adequate knowledge of the installation, constmction, or operation of lines and equipment and the hazards involved, including identification of and exposure to electric supply and communication lines and equipment in or near the workplace. An employee who is undergoing on-the-job training and who, in the course of such training, has demonstrated an ability to perform duties safely at his or her level of training, and who is under the direct supervision of a qualified person, is considered to be a qualified person for the performance of those duties.
Otherwise how do you think the trainees could get the experience of doing live work ?
- Location
- Massachusetts
And again we don't do that. Trainees are not allowed in the vicinity of live work.
We train them doing 'dead' work.
That is fine however I have to comply with OSHA rules. https://www.osha.gov/ OSHA is not a 'recommended standard' it is Federal law in the US.
And one more time, someone that has had training and demonstrated an ability to perform duties safely is not a novice as you keep insisting.
They are trained and knowledgeable, that means they are no longer novices.
I find it funny you keep fighting this as when I look at your profile it states you are a tel com engineer with a fake zip code which, when taken with your name leads me to believe you live outside the US. If that is the case I doubt you have any first hand experience with live electrical work procedures in the US.
Fulthrotl
~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
- Occupation
- E
not at all, if you consider how this rule was most likely written, and by whom....
i'm guessing some middle manager cost accountant, who wants to reduce the body count
and save money.
the author wants people to be able to work in "little" panels, like the ones you find on a wall,
not "big" panels, like the ones in the main switchgear room.
and the break point of most commercial and industrial sub panels is 225 amps, therefore,
let's put a limit on the panel size of 225 amps. problem solved.
next problem.... what are we going to do with that rope we don't need any more? can we
sell it on ebay?
State the OSHA rule or at least its number.
Thanks for pointing out about the fake zip code. I tried to fill it up with the pin-code of my location in India as the zip-code is a required field. So now I changed it 00000 to satisfy the program.
Yes I have no first hand experience with live electrical work procedures in the US. But this does not prevent me to question the stupidity in your way of doing work.
thats ok Haji
too many electricians fall into the same mud hole of slamming others who are asking questions about a different country and their electrical system!
I run into that a lot on british and australian forums as well
rather than argue a point and get a bunch of abuse. you can just suggest the difference whether they listen to it or not
I for one value the input from electricians all over the world
because every day you learn something new and any day you don't learn is a wasted day in your life
- Location
- Massachusetts
Notice qualified is by no means a novice or trainee.
I was not pointing out anything, just trying to understand the person I am posting with.
:lol: Well it should prevent you from calling our methods stupid.
You can certainly question our methods but to decide something is stupid without any experience with it at all seems rather ...... stupid.
I have not slammed him at all, with every post I have tried to explain our methods and our rules. I just cant figure out why someone with out any experience with the rules is fighting so hard against the answers he is receiving.
It is always great to learn new things, I thing Haji would be wise to take note.
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Read again. The OSHA considers a person fresh from college with a degree also as ''qualified''. So he should not be considered as novice or trainee. Your company should allow him to work with you on live work.
Perhaps, the effect of too much ingestion of beef burgers and the like.:lol:
It is rather a pity that you still do not see how expertise is transferred from one person to another.
Perhaps, the effect of too much ingestion of beef burgers and the like.:lol:
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- Location
- Massachusetts
Read again. The OSHA considers a person fresh from college with a degree also as ''qualified''. So he should not be considered as novice or trainee. Your company should allow him to work with you on live work.
You are absoulty correct, as long as that college degree is about doing live work.
You need to read the entire paragraph.
I was an aprentice for four years, I train apprentices so you are dead wrong on my understanding of it.
Which college in the world offers electrical degree on live work?!
Answer:None.
Oh no, you do not get it. As a starter, I would recommend the following book to get an idea.
http://www.amazon.in/Deep-Smarts-Cultivate-Transfer-Enduring/dp/1591395283
- Location
- Massachusetts
I would bet you are correct.
So college degree holders cannot do live work with me until they have received training and demonstrated their knowledge in that specific subject.
See how easy it is?
I would probably do better following my local areas requirements for training.
You think OSHA officials are foolish enough to state recognized degree holders who, by possession of such a degree, has successfully demonstrated his ability to solve or resolve problems relating to the subject matter, the work, or the project and so are qualified to do energized work.
Fulthrotl
~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
- Occupation
- E
nor does it prevent us from laughing at you.
you continue ranting about something you have no firsthand experience with.
the server for this forum, and most of the participants do not reside in india.
we do not speak to your hot work practices, nor do we profess to know what
your common practices are in india.
a picture is worth a thousand words.
just the cowboy
Inactive, Email Never Verified
- Location
- newburgh,ny
Can't just sit by
Can't just sit by
You seem to want us to say you can do work hot, it will not happen. Too many of us have worked in this field to know better than have a unqualified person work hot, WE RESPECT LIFE it seems you do not if you want a novice or unqualified persons working in a hot situation.:slaphead: Work safe or die thats how I leave for work everyday as an electrician, and I go home.
Can't just sit by
You seem to want us to say you can do work hot, it will not happen. Too many of us have worked in this field to know better than have a unqualified person work hot, WE RESPECT LIFE it seems you do not if you want a novice or unqualified persons working in a hot situation.:slaphead:
Work safe or die thats how I leave for work everyday as an electrician, and I go home.big john
Senior Member
- Location
- Portland, ME
The terms laid out in the OSHA standard are possibilities, not guarantees: It is possible a person may be effectively qualified by degree or certificate, but it is absolutely not a guarantee that a degree or certificate qualifies a person.
OSHA can reference NFPA 70E in citations because it is a recognized standard for electrical safety. As an example, 70E defines qualified as
Following that guideline, even electricians with the same licenses will not always be qualified the same way because of different work experiences. E.g., I often see licensed guys who have little knowledge of >1000V equipment, who would be frankly unqualified to work on it because their training did not address that.
I would agree with others that a pretty universal guideline in this country for qualifying workers is for them to have extensive training on similar equipment while de-energized.
Dan Kissel
Member
- Location
- st louis, mo
Too much safety
Too much safety
IMHO - Arc Flash restriction is out of control. I don't advocate working dangerously BUT most of us voluntarily take much bigger risks in sports, driving and living than a code writer would allow in the work place. I'd rather be aware of the risks, mitigate them as I choose and be allowed to take them if I choose. I would probably earn a higher wage and live better than the person that inflates costs by feather bedding work or work regulation that sap efficiency. Everyone who wants to work risk free needs to work in an office but you can still get a paper cut.
If you wanted to make widget factory and looked at the cost of regulations and bureaucrats, would you build in this country?
Opportunity is lost in this country in part because somebody gets a million dollars because THEY spill hot coffee in THEIR lap after they asked for the hot coffee. If the code writers had it their way, I have to suit up to drink a cup of warm coffee.
Too much safety
IMHO - Arc Flash restriction is out of control. I don't advocate working dangerously BUT most of us voluntarily take much bigger risks in sports, driving and living than a code writer would allow in the work place. I'd rather be aware of the risks, mitigate them as I choose and be allowed to take them if I choose. I would probably earn a higher wage and live better than the person that inflates costs by feather bedding work or work regulation that sap efficiency. Everyone who wants to work risk free needs to work in an office but you can still get a paper cut.
If you wanted to make widget factory and looked at the cost of regulations and bureaucrats, would you build in this country?
Opportunity is lost in this country in part because somebody gets a million dollars because THEY spill hot coffee in THEIR lap after they asked for the hot coffee. If the code writers had it their way, I have to suit up to drink a cup of warm coffee.
i think it more of misunderstanding of the differences and what they are used to in their own country
and as far as taking notes I agree 100 %
we are on a forum that is open to other cultures and electrical systems
having knowledge to help one another understand the systems makes us safer electricians and world wide friends
its a difficult task to keep from criticizing another countries systems with out fully and completely understanding it.
and a monumental task just to keep nationality out of the picture.
you would not believe the amount of abuse ive had to deal with just because i'm American
Im on international forums to learn those differences and use some of them to improve the methods we use every day
as any method that makes you a safer person is better in the long run and keeps you around to enjoy your family
big john
Senior Member
- Location
- Portland, ME
And if someone wants to endanger themselves, that is their choice. These laws are in place to help prevent employers from compelling their workers into dangerous acts and exposing their customers to significant liability.
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