EMFs and amps on water pipe

[drcampbell]

In 2005, WHO said it's unlikely to actually be the result of electromagnetic fields:

"EHS has no clear diagnostic criteria and there is no scientific basis to link EHS symptoms to EMF exposure. Further, EHS is not a medical diagnosis, nor is it clear that it represents a single medical problem."

" ... symptoms experienced by some EHS individuals might arise from environmental factors unrelated to EMF. Examples may include “flicker” from fluorescent lights [and visual-display units]" (both of which are becoming things of the past as magnetic ballasts and cathode-ray tubes are falling our of favor)

"Treatment ... requires ... a psychological evaluation to identify ... psychiatric/psychological conditions that may be responsible for the symptoms ... "

Electromagnetic hypersensitivity

www.who.int

If there's more-current information available, I'd certainly like to know about it.

Please, no wisecracks about Abbot & Costello.

 

[petersonra]

I hate to stir the pot here but this stuff is just about completely unfounded in science and is almost certainly a placebo effect.

I know your tenant probably doesn't want to hear that but I would hate for you to spend all this time and money being nice for it ultimately not to matter. The human body cannot detect electromagnetic radiation. There are a couple sketchy papers out their that claim elsewise but I would leave it for the researchers to discuss. IMO its very improbable. To not be an ass I would suggest doing things that would give the perception of "shielding" to see if it helps. You could put some wire mesh around "probable areas" that would act as a barrier. If they ask tell them about faraday cages.

But yea if they are getting shocked by the water lines definitely get that fixed lol.

I am inclined to agree with you on both points. There is little in the way of solid research to suggest EMF at low levels has any negative impact on human beings. There are some published works that suggest otherwise, but as you mentioned they are a bit sketchy. In some cases they are from outright quacks, and in other cases they are full of hypothesis that have no proof. Even if they are right, just making an assertion does not make something true, especially when the overwhelming evidence suggests otherwise.

I am not fond of the idea of doing something to make people feel like you have done something useful, especially when there is money to be made doing so. But, sometimes that might be the only thing you can do for someone.

 

[hbiss]

add to that, all the litigation Hal....

That sounds like it's all about being under or near HV power lines. A place even I wouldn't want a house to be.

-Hal

 

[Joe.B]

Ever see Better Call Saul? The characters brother "had" this, it was very interesting how he proved it false. A friend of mine's brother claimed to have this and his parents went as far as separating the circuits so he could shut down power to that portion of the house. Really pissed my friend off, so he got a long extension cord and somehow ran it under his bed (through the crawl space I think) to get power to his room when his brother would turn off the circuit. The brother never noticed and when he pointed this out to his parents they said "whatever makes him happy."

 

[romex jockey]

That sounds like it's all about being under or near HV power lines. A place even I wouldn't want a house to be.

-Hal

possibly for good reason Hal

~RJ~

 

[romex jockey]

YouTube is full of garbage and misinformation on this subject that is backed by nothing other than imagination.

oh the places we could go with this....... ~RJ~

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

Has any one looked into other utilities. Is there an inner system Bond with cable, phone, satellite etc connected.
Not one of those metal straps around a pipe.
When service change done all utilities mentioned above connected correctly.

What I can not get past is the fact some can touch the sink and get shocked. One had to be charged some how which is not on an equal potential plane.
If sink is grounded and you have isolation how does the static build.
Unless a ton of cats are rubbing your leg just before you touch the sink.
Ground the cat.
Walking across some surfaces will build a static charge.
What on the floor surfaces.

 

[romex jockey]

Ground the cat.

CMP-2 would probably substantiate that..... ~RJ~

 

[ptonsparky]

Has any one looked into other utilities. Is there an inner system Bond with cable, phone, satellite etc connected.
Not one of those metal straps around a pipe.
When service change done all utilities mentioned above connected correctly.

What I can not get past is the fact some can touch the sink and get shocked. One had to be charged some how which is not on an equal potential plane.
If sink is grounded and you have isolation how does the static build.
Unless a ton of cats are rubbing your leg just before you touch the sink.
Ground the cat.
Walking across some surfaces will build a static charge.
What on the floor surfaces.

Don't forget...what your undies are made of.

 

[kwired]

I have gotta ask. If all is grounded and bonded correctly. Where's the potential at the kitchen sink.

The drain is at earth potential, the water line is at whatever potential is imposed on it by the GEC. Or if standing on a concrete or other conductive floor the floor is earth potential

I have even encountered this in drain pipes that have non metallic sections in them and measured it myself.

One customer was getting mild shock in their shower, I went there and checked some things out and never measured any voltage, but next time I came back something told me I needed to turn the water on and then check. Once water was flowing down drain I could get some voltage to the metal drain fitting that was in similar range as neutral to earth volts at the service panel (which I have found there will almost always be something there). Bonded that metal drain fitting to water supply pipes and no more complaints.

 

[ptonsparky]

The drain is at earth potential, the water line is at whatever potential is imposed on it by the GEC. Or if standing on a concrete or other conductive floor the floor is earth potential

I have even encountered this in drain pipes that have non metallic sections in them and measured it myself.

One customer was getting mild shock in their shower, I went there and checked some things out and never measured any voltage, but next time I came back something told me I needed to turn the water on and then check. Once water was flowing down drain I could get some voltage to the metal drain fitting that was in similar range as neutral to earth volts at the service panel (which I have found there will almost always be something there). Bonded that metal drain fitting to water supply pipes and no more complaints.

Had the same thing happen except I had water running at the time. In this case I bonded the tub. There were other issues that created more than a 'tingle'.

 

[kwired]

Had the same thing happen except I had water running at the time. In this case I bonded the tub. There were other issues that created more than a 'tingle'.

In my case house had metallic water piping that was bonded to service. Drain piping had mixture of old metal pipes and newer plastic pipes so you would think that would been enough isolation. Non metallic shower unit but a metal drain fitting. Even with water on it took several seconds before I would measure voltage between supply lines and that drain fitting, water flowing in drain had to be making the circuit.

I can't remember what voltage was anymore, but she said it didn't feel like a shock but her lower legs and feet maybe felt like someone poking them with needles everywhere. Said her husband never ever felt anything using that shower, probably higher resistance skinned.

Had another one back when we had the two iced storms in 2005 and 2006 old house probably built in 40's or 50's with metallic drain piping mostly all intact yet. POCO's did what they had to do to get services up, and there were still a lot of distribution neutrals still lying on the ground at the time. Old tub (no shower) with two handle faucet in wall. they said you don't dare touch the faucet while sitting in tub, but only started recently. I had same as neutral to earth volts between sewer and water piping, so it makes sense why they get shocked sitting in tub. Bonded water pipes to drain pipe and said it will be fine.

 

[romex jockey]

Bonded water pipes to drain pipe and said it will be fine.

the old 'bird on a wire' routine

~RJ~

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

"The drain is at earth potential, the water line is at whatever potential is imposed on it by the GEC. Or if standing on a concrete or other conductive floor the floor is earth potential"

Ummm, (2014 NEC)
article 100
Ground
Grounding electrode
Grounding electrode conductor

250.50
250.52 (A) (1)-(8)
250.53
250.62 (F) (1)
250.68 (B)&(C)

250.92 (B)
250.94

General Fyi 250.96(B)

250.104 (A) , A(1) & (3)(B)
250.110
250.114
And so on.

So I still ask if all is bonded and grounded correctly how can one receive a shock at the sink.

Thank you for sharing.

 

[suemarkp]

The GEC and ground electrodes at not necessarily the same potential as the rest of the earth. As you move away from a electrode, the voltage relative to the earth changes. If there is a fault putting 100V onto a ground rod, there will be a voltage gradient towards zero in about a 4 foot circle from the rod.

With just voltage drop potentials the voltage gradient is less dramatic. But with wet hands and stocking feet, some people may feel just a few volts.

 

[drcampbell]

Running water can create a static potential.

 

[hbiss]

Running water can create a static potential.

There is a YouTube by a Canadian EE and ham radio operator from last year where he shows the static charge on his long wire antenna during a snow storm. He was able to draw an arc from the wire disconnected from the receiver.

Methinks he needs a protector where it comes into the building.

-Hal

 

[GoldDigger]

CMP-2 would probably substantiate that..... ~RJ~

But you would then have to install a Ground Fault Cat Interrupter.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

I'm going to think about it a few days. Thanks for everyone's input.
Cat interrupter, Nice one.
Going back to a few installs and review static grounding I have done. Aircraft fueling to refinery.
Should be the same. Going to reach out to old chemical engineer friend that I have worked with in the past.
Again thanks

 

[garbo]

Hi, since I'm new, and this post will be screened (per the posting guidelines which I did read) I might not see your replies till I log on, but if you do, thank you.

We have a tenant with EHS (electromagnetic hypersensitivity syndrome. And I'm looking for ways to reduce EMFs.

Our electrician "replaced 200 amp service cable, meter socket and update grounding system" and thought this would reduce the EMFs but it hasn't. So, after this service was completed and sticker was placed tenant was still getting shocked at the kitchen sink and still reads high EMFs on the floor and walls.

Another electrical company inspected for ways to reduce EMFs and they found:
1. "Up to 1.3 amps of current was found flowing on water pipe GEC even with main breaker off suggesting a possible issue with the service neutral conductor or wiring fault. This type of current imbalance is known to cause elevated magnetic fields."
2. Some lights receive power even with main off. Therefore, there are circuits that appear to be inter-connected possibly between the two corresponding panels. This condition can lead to elevated magnetic fields."

The water company had to replace the water meter and that happened to be after the service work was done. I was reading through this post from 2008 to help with the amp on water pipe:

https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/amps-in-the-cold-water-pipe.52016/ which made me think about the water meter maybe being the culprit for the water pipe.

I thought the service work would have corrected any issue with the service neutral conductor, and I thought the water meter would help with the shock (it might have, I don't know yet). I just don't know how to reduce the EMFs.

Any thoughts on the 1.3 amps current -- is that 'high'? (I don't know if it was amps or milliamps, sorry.)
Any experience with reducing EMFs??

Thank you so much!!

I started taking ampere readings on copper water services & steel pipe for gas service. My shop teacher told us that the Brooklyn bridge had a few hundred amps flowing thru it. I believe a lot of this is due to cheap penny pinching ultility companies who do not have to follow the NEC. My house is feed from just one phase of the available 3 phase on pole. So they depend on flimsy ground rod at bottom of pole that has 3 or 4 splices due to thief of copper ground wire and they bond the other side of primary to transformer case and center tap of grounded conductor ( nuetral) causing the water & gas pipes to back feed power to transformer. If they would just run 2 medium voltage ( 13.2 KV ) wires to feed primary and only bond the center tap of transformer secondary this would greatly reduce the current in water & gas pipes. Going back to ground rod at bottom of poles while walking around have seen broken or several feet of wire missing for several months. Read some where that all switch cables should have the nuetral inside of it to reduce magnetic fields. I have one wall that has 4 pieces of 1" thick insulation board with aluminum foil on one side so I made sure to use aluminum foil tape to bridge over the 2 by 4" studs to reduce any fields. I never heard of a person receiving shocks due to being extra sensitive to the fields you mentioned.