Engineer VS. AHJ

[Sierrasparky]

You need to lighten up. It is a game. A game of strategy. You seem to imply that game is nothing more than a friendly thing between two kids. They used to play games in the Coliseum in Rome. I find it ironic that you quote my post where I actually point out that the EE you refer to is wrong and next time, just look at him and tell him that the Supreme Court ruled in the Spearin Ruling (I am sorry I misspelled this earlier.) Look it up. It is a landmark case and basically states that contractor can't be held liable for the mistakes made by the Architect and the Engineer. They can put all the words they want down. Either way, it is still a game. That doesn't imply that it is always fun.

A game!

I ain't lightning up a bit till things change and level out the playing field. :thumbsup:

 

[Strathead]

.

That case was decided in 1918. just short of a hundred years ago.
In the last 100 years no contractor has used this. It may be case law it may be a supreme court ruling , however it is not used as you folks seem to claim.

That is not true. The reason I know it is that I sat down with a lawyer who specialized in Contract law. We were discussing this type of contract argument, and he cited it off the top of his head. It is very pertinent to current law.

 

[Strathead]

A game!

I ain't lightning up a bit till things change and level out the playing field. :thumbsup:

Well then for you, please just substitute the words, "strategic confrontation" every time one of us uses game, or "strategic competition" if you don't want it to always have a negative connotation, which I hope is not the case with you. 95% of the time it is a friendly competition where no one side wants the other to lose money or to take advantage.

 

[Sierrasparky]

That is not true. The reason I know it is that I sat down with a lawyer who specialized in Contract law. We were discussing this type of contract argument, and he cited it off the top of his head. It is very pertinent to current law.

I don't know what to say. The spearin doctrine came from a 1918 supreme court decision. United States v. Spearin, 248 U.S. 132 (1918)it was a federal case relating to a federal contract, so it is not law of the land in all states.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Well then for you, please just substitute the words, "strategic confrontation" every time one of us uses game, or "strategic competition" if you don't want it to always have a negative connotation, which I hope is not the case with you. 95% of the time it is a friendly competition where no one side wants the other to lose money or to take advantage.

Nope,
it should not even be called a strategic confrontation. there should be no strategy involved other than scheduling and such. None of this leverage crap.

 

[Strathead]

Nope,
it should not even be called a strategic confrontation. there should be no strategy involved other than scheduling and such. None of this leverage crap.

And all plans should be perfect and unicorns should poop gold glitter on all new buildings to provide better insulation and stop global warming. :slaphead:

 

[Strathead]

I don't know what to say. The spearin doctrine came from a 1918 supreme court decision. United States v. Spearin, 248 U.S. 132 (1918)it was a federal case relating to a federal contract, so it is not law of the land in all states.

I have been doing this for thirty years. I have never once seen a contractor willing to fight, who didn't get paid when he had to do something that had financial impact to fix a problem that was due to installing exactly to the plans. I don't really know what you are getting at.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I have been doing this for thirty years. I have never once seen a contractor willing to fight, who didn't get paid when he had to do something that had financial impact to fix a problem that was due to installing exactly to the plans. I don't really know what you are getting at.

Am i correct in reading that in all your 30 years you have seen contractors roll over and do nothing.

"I have been doing this for thirty years. I have never once seen a contractor willing to fight"

 

[gadfly56]

Am i correct in reading that in all your 30 years you have seen contractors roll over and do nothing.

"I have been doing this for thirty years. I have never once seen a contractor willing to fight"

I believe he meant that if the contractor was willing to go to the mat, said contractor usually got paid.

 

[Ingenieur]

That's why we have peer review in my design group.

yep
at conceptual
80-90%
and final/bid
documrnting the process reduced my e&o premium
sometimes I would use a third party review

 

[Fulthrotl]

And all plans should be perfect and unicorns should poop gold glitter on all new buildings to provide better insulation and stop global warming. :slaphead:

you can't insulated the world against unicorn poop.

besides, i watched on fake news that unicorn poop is faux news,
or something like that.

 

[Strathead]

Am i correct in reading that in all your 30 years you have seen contractors roll over and do nothing.

"I have been doing this for thirty years. I have never once seen a contractor willing to fight"

No.

 

[Strathead]

I believe he meant that if the contractor was willing to go to the mat, said contractor usually got paid.

correct, obviously

 

[Sierrasparky]

I believe he meant that if the contractor was willing to go to the mat, said contractor usually got paid.

What do you mean by going to the mat. Are we talking getting the lawyers involved and end up in litigation.

Or
Sending a detailed well documented demand letter to the persons authorizing and paying the bill?

 

[Fulthrotl]

What do you mean by going to the mat.

https://youtu.be/fmX2VzsB25s

 

[Strathead]

What do you mean by going to the mat. Are we talking getting the lawyers involved and end up in litigation.

Or
Sending a detailed well documented demand letter to the persons authorizing and paying the bill?

Since I was the one who made the statement, I mean fighting in general. Documenting letters and just letting the people paying the bill that you are entitled and don't plan to go away. Getting lawyers involved and ending up in litigation are two far apart things. It is pretty amazing what a letter or a phone call from a lawyer does. Then there is filing the lien on the property. Also, not getting yourself in the situation where any legal action is in your court. Don't do work that requires a change order without being authorized. If the plans tell you to do things a certain way, make them understand you will ONLY do it that way until they authorize a change request. One thing that is obvious to me, though. It all starts with training your personnel to do the paperwork right. Be careful to ensure that the scope of work is clear BEFORE signing a contract.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Since I was the one who made the statement, I mean fighting in general. Documenting letters and just letting the people paying the bill that you are entitled and don't plan to go away. Getting lawyers involved and ending up in litigation are two far apart things. It is pretty amazing what a letter or a phone call from a lawyer does. Then there is filing the lien on the property. Also, not getting yourself in the situation where any legal action is in your court. Don't do work that requires a change order without being authorized. If the plans tell you to do things a certain way, make them understand you will ONLY do it that way until they authorize a change request. One thing that is obvious to me, though. It all starts with training your personnel to do the paperwork right. Be careful to ensure that the scope of work is clear BEFORE signing a contract.

Interesting , earlier you wrote about being a game.
Then you write about getting a lawyer to make a call. Then having the ability to file a lien.
All of which cost time and money. The lien process is a joke. ( at least in CA) You cannot just file a lien and let it sit. At some point you need to file suit to claim it, usually 90 days.


" don't do work extra work without a change order" that is obvious. However there are issues when the not yet authorized change holds up work. Then when the change is issued there is no extra time awarded to complete. Most of the time the change order system falls short and I know that the authorized persons delay so they can get the extra for free.

With all due respect. I see project managers all the time asking the on site personnel to do things they know are not part of the scope hoping it will get done for free. I have had owners and architects get in my face and tell me " don't you dare change order me" my reply " don't make all these changes" " I'll just continue with only what is on the plans"

In one case I came in one morning to find several feeders installed several days earlier hanging (cut). We had left at 3pm the day earlier. I asked what happened. Well , we decided to move this wall and your stuff was in the way. I asked , is the work on the plans, the reply was NO! Was the change notified NO!
I asked why I was not notified. The answer just deal with it. The the jerk got angry and started to threaten me when I said I could not re-do this without a change order and extra money , The owner just laughed, the job went down hill from there. This owner wound up screwing everyone and on several other jobs.

The point is that many on the opposite end from the contractor think this is a game. Then they wonder why they get crap workmanship. I loathe for the day I can get away with sticking to the other side. Problem is I have too much integrity. So that will never happen.

Sorry for the diversion

 

[Strathead]

Interesting , earlier you wrote about being a game.

Just how many times does someone have to tell you that "game" is not a board that two kids sit at? You are frustrating. Have you ever heard of the movie Hunger Games? Do you know that people lose more money on a single hand in a poker GAME than you are talking about here? It is a word and it has meaning you just refuse to accept. Here is the applicable part of teh definition from Merriam Webster:

• a : a procedure or strategy for gaining an end : tactic
  
  
• 3a (1) : a physical or mental competition conducted according to rules with the participants in direct opposition to each other

 

[Strathead]

Interesting , earlier you wrote about being a game.
Then you write about getting a lawyer to make a call. Then having the ability to file a lien.
All of which cost time and money. The lien process is a joke. ( at least in CA) You cannot just file a lien and let it sit. At some point you need to file suit to claim it, usually 90 days.


" don't do work extra work without a change order" that is obvious. However there are issues when the not yet authorized change holds up work. Then when the change is issued there is no extra time awarded to complete. Most of the time the change order system falls short and I know that the authorized persons delay so they can get the extra for free.

With all due respect. I see project managers all the time asking the on site personnel to do things they know are not part of the scope hoping it will get done for free. I have had owners and architects get in my face and tell me " don't you dare change order me" my reply " don't make all these changes" " I'll just continue with only what is on the plans"

In one case I came in one morning to find several feeders installed several days earlier hanging (cut). We had left at 3pm the day earlier. I asked what happened. Well , we decided to move this wall and your stuff was in the way. I asked , is the work on the plans, the reply was NO! Was the change notified NO!
I asked why I was not notified. The answer just deal with it. The the jerk got angry and started to threaten me when I said I could not re-do this without a change order and extra money , The owner just laughed, the job went down hill from there. This owner wound up screwing everyone and on several other jobs.

The point is that many on the opposite end from the contractor think this is a game. Then they wonder why they get crap workmanship. I loathe for the day I can get away with sticking to the other side. Problem is I have too much integrity. So that will never happen.

Sorry for the diversion

One wonders why you do what you do. It sounds like you hate it. Perhaps a change in your perspective where you realize it is your skill against theirs. Or choosing better teams to work with. While I live in Florida now, my training was 15 years working in the San Francisco Bay Area. I am quite familiar with the challenges you have in California.

 

[Ingenieur]

Sierrasparky
it sounds like you hate what you do and it is making you miserable
I feel for you
you can't change others but you can change your outlook
not everyone is a devious sob out to screw you, imho those types are rare
I read a book a long time ago (20 years in a blink fbthe eye lol) it improved my outlook
the art of happiness