Engineering know-it-alls

[cdslotz]

But it's also the architect's and engineer's job to know what those requirements are. It may be part of the installer's job to comply with their codes, but it's also the plan reviewer's job to catch the errors and the architect's job not to ask for things that aren't code in the first place, especially when it's the intersection of multiple codes. Blaming it entirely on the installer is misplaced. (I'm not saying that the installer is absolved, just they it shouldn't all be on them.)

The architect and engineer do know the requirements. And all they have to do to is put a note or spec referencing these codes. Do you want them to mark the height of every outlet?
Not telling you something you should already know is not an error.

 

[CopperTone]

when competatively bidding, all you have to go by is the prints and specs. If you start to add all kinds of things that are not in the prints then you probably won't get the job because you will be too high.
For example, if you have a fire alarm system and there are missing pull stations from exit doors of a building - if you add that on your own then you may be high and lose the job. If the lights were omitted from a room, should you account for that in your bid because you know that room needs lights? not for free will you do it and don't add it in your bid on your own. Only bid what you see and then when you get the job send in an RFI regarding that and get the A or EE to verify that it needs to be there and then send in a change order for that.
EE 's get paid to design the system, EC's are there to install the system. Yes the EC has to know the code, but the EC isn't there to wipe up the EE's sloppy work at their own expense.
Bad EE's try to hide behind the double speak of specs and redundancy of responsiblity hidden in specs. Bad EE's think it is not their fault that the prints or specs are wrong. You generally can find contradictions all over spec books for projects and you can end up fighting back and forth for an extra sometimes.
The best advice is to know the facts (read the specs), stay calm, stick to your guns and don't cave in.

 

[renosteinke]

Growing up, there was a quote from John Ruskin that was posted at the local ice cream parlor. It read "There is nothing that cannot be done more cheaply by someone, and those who consider price alone are that man's lawful prey."

Someone asks you to quote a job, they're giving you an opportunity to set yourself apart from the pack. There's your chance to outline the OTHER reasons you should get the job, apart from just the price. It's NEVER in your interests to let your work become a commodity.

Sure, some folks just don't get it. I once had a customer get upset because I asked about the bathroom mirror plans; they actually went so far as to deliberately give me the 'wrong' answer just to show how 'smart' they were. They also got to pay to have the receptacle relocated. I asked- they lied - they paid ... all because they felt that I did not have the 'need to know' where the mirror would be hung.

I've also had multiple times when folks specified lights in locations that would become completely inaccessible after the job was done. Makes it kind of hard to change a bulb later.

What I am getting at is that the customer needs to know just what sort of contractor you are - and weigh the bids accordingly. Sure, there's a lot of 'guessing' involved. We call it 'professional judgement.' We've all had the joy of being given a blank floor plan and being told to 'make it work.' We've also been able to learn as time reveals all of our wisdom (or foolishness).

That experience we count on to let us spot the unusual in a plan, and examine that part more closely.

Sure, sometimes we lose. I lost a bid for a hair/nail salon because I bis a hair/nail salon, while the other guy was allowed to bid a simple, non-specific division of a commercial rental space. Where I had a dozen circuits, he had four receptacles. Where I had task lighting, he simply left the ceiling grid 'as is.' I still a bit upset at the way the CUSStomer misled me, but he has to live with the results. I expect he'll have some problems with his future tenant. I'm probably better off without that particular tar baby.

There's your choice, in a nutshell. Do you quote 'as drawn,' or as he 'really wants.' Either way, you need to make clear just how much uncertainty you're willing to accept the risk for. If you plan to quote strictly on what is drawn on the "E sheets," you must specify that. Let the customer sort through the declarations as well as the prices; that's HIS job.

It's not JUST the 'bottom line.' It's a CONTRACT. Remember that any uncertainty in a contract is understood against the guy who wrote it. That means HE pays for his lack of clarity. You wouldn't hand over a blank check to a stranger ... why would you accept a blanket acceptance of responsibility?

 

[cowboyjwc]

Here's another big issue that I have run into over and over for the past few years.

Most of you guys are bidding incomplete plans to begin with. You shouldn't be bidding off of the set that they submitted to B&S for plan check, you should be bidding off of the set that is submitted to B&S for the permit.

I have had several jobs lately where the plans have gone back and forth. GC comes in and picks them up on Monday and is calling for a rough electrical inspection for Tuesday. So I know for a fact that all of the contractors were working off of a nonapproved set of plans. You can bet that almost every time there is a correction for some thing that got missed that "wasn't on the plans", yeah not the plans you were working off of, but it's right here on the stamped set.

 

[Sierrasparky]

when competatively bidding, all you have to go by is the prints and specs. If you start to add all kinds of things that are not in the prints then you probably won't get the job because you will be too high.
.

ok so what does one do when the specs say "the EC will provide a complete working electrical system for the structure or building as built"

I have seen this for the past 5 years.
I know this is an attempt to avoid change orders and extra costs.

 

[ptonsparky]

Growing up, there was a quote from John Ruskin that was posted at the local ice cream parlor. It read "There is nothing that cannot be done more cheaply by someone, and those who consider price alone are that man's lawful prey."

Someone asks you to quote a job, they're giving you an opportunity to set yourself apart from the pack. There's your chance to outline the OTHER reasons you should get the job, apart from just the price. It's NEVER in your interests to let your work become a commodity.

Sure, some folks just don't get it. I once had a customer get upset because I asked about the bathroom mirror plans; they actually went so far as to deliberately give me the 'wrong' answer just to show how 'smart' they were. They also got to pay to have the receptacle relocated. I asked- they lied - they paid ... all because they felt that I did not have the 'need to know' where the mirror would be hung.

I've also had multiple times when folks specified lights in locations that would become completely inaccessible after the job was done. Makes it kind of hard to change a bulb later.

What I am getting at is that the customer needs to know just what sort of contractor you are - and weigh the bids accordingly. Sure, there's a lot of 'guessing' involved. We call it 'professional judgement.' We've all had the joy of being given a blank floor plan and being told to 'make it work.' We've also been able to learn as time reveals all of our wisdom (or foolishness).

That experience we count on to let us spot the unusual in a plan, and examine that part more closely.

Sure, sometimes we lose. I lost a bid for a hair/nail salon because I bis a hair/nail salon, while the other guy was allowed to bid a simple, non-specific division of a commercial rental space. Where I had a dozen circuits, he had four receptacles. Where I had task lighting, he simply left the ceiling grid 'as is.' I still a bit upset at the way the CUSStomer misled me, but he has to live with the results. I expect he'll have some problems with his future tenant. I'm probably better off without that particular tar baby.

There's your choice, in a nutshell. Do you quote 'as drawn,' or as he 'really wants.' Either way, you need to make clear just how much uncertainty you're willing to accept the risk for. If you plan to quote strictly on what is drawn on the "E sheets," you must specify that. Let the customer sort through the declarations as well as the prices; that's HIS job.

It's not JUST the 'bottom line.' It's a CONTRACT. Remember that any uncertainty in a contract is understood against the guy who wrote it. That means HE pays for his lack of clarity. You wouldn't hand over a blank check to a stranger ... why would you accept a blanket acceptance of responsibility?

Some good suggestions.

Recently bid a project as requested by the owner. I gave him the price along with "This is what you asked for, but it is not what you need." A 600 amp 480v disconnect blossomed into an 800 Amp MDP, MCC, a couple panelboards and PLC control along with an HMI. He just thought he knew what he needed.

 

[stevenje]

Here's another big issue that I have run into over and over for the past few years.

Most of you guys are bidding incomplete plans to begin with. You shouldn't be bidding off of the set that they submitted to B&S for plan check, you should be bidding off of the set that is submitted to B&S for the permit.

I have had several jobs lately where the plans have gone back and forth. GC comes in and picks them up on Monday and is calling for a rough electrical inspection for Tuesday. So I know for a fact that all of the contractors were working off of a nonapproved set of plans. You can bet that almost every time there is a correction for some thing that got missed that "wasn't on the plans", yeah not the plans you were working off of, but it's right here on the stamped set.

I hear you there. I don't know how many times I have been handed a set of prints to work off of, that are stamped " NOT APPROVED FOR CONSTRUCTION". You got to love it.

 

[sameguy]

Thats how we made so much off the $1.6mil. job we had 90 RFI in 30 days and increasing. It got to the point they requested an end to the RFI and said we knew what we were doing, let them know before we do it, send a fax get the ok, then do it. They will fix the print with our as-built later. Cha- ching!
Yes I did make them tell me all the elevations and locations for Every opening per spec. 'Do not scale print, confirm locations with Arch.' The answer in writing..."SCALE Print".

 

[cowboyjwc]

Thats how we made so much off the $1.6mil. job we had 90 RFI in 30 days and increasing. It got to the point they requested an end to the RFI and said we knew what we were doing, let them know before we do it, send a fax get the ok, then do it. They will fix the print with our as-built later. Cha- ching!
Yes I did make them tell me all the elevations and locations for Every opening per spec. 'Do not scale print, confirm locations with Arch.' The answer in writing..."SCALE Print".

Yep, just had a guy scale the print for his exterior walk way lights on a little shopping center. all of them ended up being a foot to low (minimum 80" to the lowest projection per ADA unless it projects 4" or less from the wall).

 

[Sierrasparky]

Here's another big issue that I have run into over and over for the past few years.

Most of you guys are bidding incomplete plans to begin with. You shouldn't be bidding off of the set that they submitted to B&S for plan check, you should be bidding off of the set that is submitted to B&S for the permit.

I have had several jobs lately where the plans have gone back and forth. GC comes in and picks them up on Monday and is calling for a rough electrical inspection for Tuesday. So I know for a fact that all of the contractors were working off of a nonapproved set of plans. You can bet that almost every time there is a correction for some thing that got missed that "wasn't on the plans", yeah not the plans you were working off of, but it's right here on the stamped set.

Yea I get ya!
So I guess we all can just sit around and do nothing, earning nothing, not paying the bills.

I don't think so. I hate doing biz this way but what are ya gonna do!

 

[satcom]

Read the specifications.
The specs that I have no use for are the CSI ( Construction Specification Institute ) canned specs. The come in Word and have sections you can edit as fast as you can run a mouse. A smarter than averag chimpanze can write the specs for a whole job in a couple of hours. They are weasel words that transfer responsibiltiy for everything from the engineer to the contractor.
They usually have a sections that says something like " The contractor shall install all components and systems in compliance with all applicable codes, standards and local regulations"
Then they give you hirarchey of documents which says specifications take presidence over drawings.
On a job like yours they would say "the spec says you have to build it to the code, put in the disconnect- you should have caught it when you bid the job."
It's a cheap trick, the engineer never makes a mistake and is never responsible for a cost change order.
As an engineer I don't work with people who use the CSI canned specs. It's very unprofessional. :rant:

yes, it was his job to spot it in the bid stage, and he has to do the job to code. the engineer is not the responsible party he is.

 

[sameguy]

That is not my rubber stamp in the corner! They are responsible; if you can catch it prebid o.k., if not not in the price.

 

[Sierrasparky]

That is not my rubber stamp in the corner! They are responsible; if you can catch it prebid o.k., if not not in the price.

Exactly!
It is the EE or Arc stamp on the plans. It should be their problem not the EC. How is the Ec supposed to know if it is a trick of if the EE just wants it that way to possibly cut costs. For the bidder to just add the item becuase he thinks he will have to is rediculous. adding all those mistakes will just make you the highest bid and in the poorhouse.

There must be a way for us EC to bid properly and not have to deal with those scrupulous EE and Owners.

 

[renosteinke]

An amusing thought ....

WHAT IF ... at the end of a job ... the customer presented the architect / engineer with copies of all their 'not responsible' assertions .... then told them "since you were not resposible for anything, you did nothing, and I need not pay YOU!"

 

[Sierrasparky]

An amusing thought ....

WHAT IF ... at the end of a job ... the customer presented the architect / engineer with copies of all their 'not responsible' assertions .... then told them "since you were not resposible for anything, you did nothing, and I need not pay YOU!"

I like that --
May I use it the next time I am confronted with this same issue?

Sparky

 

[stevenje]

yes, it was his job to spot it in the bid stage, and he has to do the job to code. the engineer is not the responsible party he is.

What is the responsibility of the engineer?

 

[Sierrasparky]

What is the responsibility of the engineer?

None ! absolutely none........
Refer to post # 10

 

[cowboyjwc]

Yea I get ya!
So I guess we all can just sit around and do nothing, earning nothing, not paying the bills.

I don't think so. I hate doing biz this way but what are ya gonna do!

Well you can do whatever you want, but if you are working with nonapporved plans then that means you are also working with out a permit. Penalty is double the permit fee up to $1000. If I were going to do that I would make sure that I had an extra $1000 in my bid.

I consider it a lack of respect for someone to be working without a permit or plans, and then when they do call me out for a next day inspection, you can bet that they get their money's worth.

 

[satcom]

None ! absolutely none........
Refer to post # 10

Yes, not only #10 but when we pull a permit and have our seal on the permit we are the party they hang, you usually can't hang the code requirements on the engineer, however if there are design problems chances are the plans will not be approved.

 

[kwired]

Well you can do whatever you want, but if you are working with nonapporved plans then that means you are also working with out a permit. Penalty is double the permit fee up to $1000. If I were going to do that I would make sure that I had an extra $1000 in my bid.

I consider it a lack of respect for someone to be working without a permit or plans, and then when they do call me out for a next day inspection, you can bet that they get their money's worth.

Plans? I'd guess less than 5% of the work I do has plans from a third party. Permits are still pulled where required. AHJ doesn't even care to see plans normally. NEC and any local amendments tell him what standards he is going to use for inspection.