Equipment grounding conductor

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hhsting

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I have gas station dispenser sump sensor cable Veeder Root cable 1-#12, Dispenser Intercom cable 2-#14 and emergency system shutdown button article 514.11 cable 2-#14.

My question is does NEC 2014 Article 514 require equipment grounding conductor for any of them?

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hhsting said:
I have gas station dispenser sump sensor cable Veeder Root cable 1-#12, Dispenser Intercom cable 2-#14 and emergency system shutdown button article 514.11 cable 2-#14.

My question is does NEC 2014 Article 514 require equipment grounding conductor for any of them?

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Any input from code expert is really appreciated.

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As long as both end points (equipment) are themselves properly grounded, I don't believe the LV wiring requires separate EGCs run with them.

Be patient if you want an expert opinion; mine is not.
 
According to 250.100 you would not need an equipment grounding conductors of the wire type, but you still must bond by one of the methods specified in 250.92(B)(2) through (B)(4).

I am not a code expert.
 
hhsting said:
I have gas station dispenser sump sensor cable Veeder Root cable 1-#12, Dispenser Intercom cable 2-#14 and emergency system shutdown button article 514.11 cable 2-#14.

My question is does NEC 2014 Article 514 require equipment grounding conductor for any of them?

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You might want to take a look at art 504.....30......50


~RJ~
 
After all the code section I am still lost. Ok lets take a look at three items:

1. The emrgency stop button (E stop) is not installed in hazardous location. It is in line side of the panel that feeds dispenser data, power, communication and located right on outaide wall of store entrance non hazardous area. Is EGC required for this to be brought? If yes then should it be disconnected?

2. Sump pump sensor cable, I would imagine would go from non hazardous location to hazadrous class 1 location load side of service disco. However, NEC 2014 Article 514.16 says shall comply per 501.30. I am lost by the language 501.30(A) says to in bonding jumpers but i am lost 501.30(A) apply in service disconnect only? And what size bonding jumper? Or 504.50(A) apply but then 514.16 does not refer back to 504.50 at all?????? Just confusing.

3. Dispensor intercom cable would also imagine go from non hazardous location to hazardous location. Same question is #2.

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To me, the steps would be 514.16 which references 501.30 for ALL metal raceways.
501.30 requires bonding by means other than double locknuts or locknut bushing and when flex is involved you need a bond jumper.
Unless you are dealing with hubs or some approved grounding path other than lock-nut , I would think an equipment groinding conductor would be necessary.

(A non-expert opinion)

edited to note locknut is not aceptable
 
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I'm no code expert, but I've done more gas stations than most.

You are talking about 3 different conduits.

Power and dispenser communication are in one conduit. Intercom is not a class 1 circuit and needs to be in a separate conduit. The V/R wiring is intrinsically safe and needs to be in it's own conduit. Lately I think a 4th conduit is being installed for Ethernet connection for video (commercials) at the dispenser.

No question, an EGC is required in the power conduit. Typically we did not pull a ground conductor even when using PVC in the intercom, V/R, or Ethernet conduit. I have not been busted for not having that ground pulled. It has bee at least a decade since I've done a gas station.

I think I'm probably zero help to you. :(
 
hhsting said:
After all the code section I am still lost. Ok lets take a look at three items:

1. The emrgency stop button (E stop) per NEC 514.11 is not installed in hazardous location. It is in line side of the panel that feeds dispenser data, power, communication and located right on outaide wall of store entrance non hazardous area. Is EGC required for this to be brought? If yes then should it be disconnected?

2. Sump pump sensor cable, I would imagine would go from non hazardous location to hazadrous class 1 location load side of service disco. However, NEC 2014 Article 514.16 says shall comply per 501.30. I am lost by the language 501.30(A) says to in bonding jumpers but i am lost 501.30(A) apply in service disconnect only? And what size bonding jumper? Or 504.50(A) apply but then 514.16 does not refer back to 504.50 at all?????? Just confusing.

3. Dispensor intercom cable would also imagine go from non hazardous location to hazardous location. Same question is #2.

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I suppose is their 514 code expert or anyone experenced in gas station install who can assist? Input is appreciated.

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hhsting said:
After all the code section I am still lost. Ok lets take a look at three items:

1. The emrgency stop button (E stop) is not installed in hazardous location. It is in line side of the panel that feeds dispenser data, power, communication and located right on outaide wall of store entrance non hazardous area. Is EGC required for this to be brought?
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Yes
If yes then should it be disconnected?
Click to expand...
No
2. Sump pump sensor cable, I would imagine would go from non hazardous location to hazadrous class 1 location load side of service disco. However, NEC 2014 Article 514.16 says shall comply per 501.30. I am lost by the language 501.30(A) says to in bonding jumpers but i am lost 501.30(A) apply in service disconnect only? And what size bonding jumper? Or 504.50(A) apply but then 514.16 does not refer back to 504.50 at all?????? Just confusing.
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I read that section to mean that I cannot use the double locknut method of bonding for any equipment in the Class 1 Division 1 location. I have to not depend on any double locknut bonding all the way back to the service equipment.
3. Dispensor intercom cable would also imagine go from non hazardous location to hazardous location. Same question is #2.

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oldsparky52 said:
YesNo I read that section to mean that I cannot use the double locknut method of bonding for any equipment in the Class 1 Division 1 location. I have to not depend on any double locknut bonding all the way back to the service equipment.
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Ok. Following:

1. 501.30 says but bonding jumpers with proper fittings or other approval means of bonding shall be used. So how does one do bonding jumper with proper fittings without locknut bushing and double locknut and how to size bonding jumper?

2. 250.100 refers to 250.92(B)(2) to 250.92(B)(4) as acceptabke bonding method claas 1 location. 250.92(B)(4) is bonding type locknut, bushing, or bushing with bonding jumpers. However this is not allowed by 501.30(A) Grounding and Bonding Ckass 1 division 1 and 2. Why this discrapancy?

3. For intersically safe going from non hazardous to hazardous 501.30 does not refer to 504.30. How does 504.30 tie into 501.50 since hazardous area can be class 1 internsically safe?

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hhsting said:
Ok. Following:

1. 501.30 says but bonding jumpers with proper fittings or other approval means of bonding shall be used. So how does one do bonding jumper with proper fittings without locknut bushing and double locknut and how to size bonding jumper?
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I always used a grounding bushing. I sized the conductor to the size of the circuit. Typically I would take a #12 from the panel ground bus and route it to every grounding bushing.
2. 250.100 refers to 250.92(B)(2) to 250.92(B)(4) as acceptabke bonding method claas 1 location. 250.92(B)(4) is bonding type locknut, bushing, or bushing with bonding jumpers. However this is not allowed by 501.30(A) Grounding and Bonding Ckass 1 division 1 and 2. Why this discrapancy?
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I never had grounding bushings rejected.
3. For intersically safe going from non hazardous to hazardous 501.30 does not refer to 504.30. How does 504.30 tie into 501.50 since hazardous area can be class 1 internsically safe?
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504.60 specifically mentions 501.30(A)
 
oldsparky52 said:
I always used a grounding bushing. I sized the conductor to the size of the circuit. Typically I would take a #12 from the panel ground bus and route it to every grounding bushing. I never had grounding bushings rejected. 504.60 specifically mentions 501.30(A)
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This is odd and confusing:

504.60(A) is for IS system in hazardous classified location and refers to 250.100 which refer to 250.92(B)(2) thru 250.92(B)(4).

504.60(B) is for IS system in unclassified location and it refers to 501.30(A). How can unclassified location refer to classified location while part A hazardous classified location refer to 250.100 which says locknut is allowed thru 250.92(B)(4)? What exactly does 504.60(A)(B) mean?
 
hhsting said:
This is odd and confusing:

504.60(A) is for IS system in hazardous classified location and refers to 250.100 which refer to 250.92(B)(2) thru 250.92(B)(4).

504.60(B) is for IS system in unclassified location and it refers to 501.30(A). How can unclassified location refer to classified location while part A hazardous classified location refer to 250.100 which says locknut is allowed thru 250.92(B)(4)? What exactly does 504.60(A)(B) mean?
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I believe you are overthinking this.
 
hhsting said:
How so?
There has to be difference between the two. Unclassified location point to 501.30(A) while classified location points to 250.100 which says locknut allowed.
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Where does it show an unclassified location pointing to 501.30?

Anything that points to 501.30 cannot use a locknut for bonding. I believe it is that simple.
 
oldsparky52 said:
Where does it show an unclassified location pointing to 501.30?

Anything that points to 501.30 cannot use a locknut for bonding. I believe it is that simple.
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NEC 2014:

"504.60 BONDING

(A) Hazardous Locations. In hazardous (classified) locations, intrinsically safe appartus shall be bonded in the hazardous (classified) location in accordance with 250.100.

(B) Unclassified. In unclassified locations, where metal raceways are used for intirnsically safe system wiring in hazardous (classified) locations, associated apparatus shall be bonded in accordance with 501.30(A), 502.30(A), 503.30(A), 505.25 or 506.25 as applicable.


504.50 GROUNDING

(A) Intrinsically Safe Appartus, Enclosures, and Raceways. Intrinsically safe apparatus, enclosures and raceways, if of metal, shall be connected to the equipment grounding conductor......"



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hhsting said:
NEC 2014:

"504.60 BONDING

(A) Hazardous Locations. In hazardous (classified) locations, intrinsically safe appartus shall be bonded in the hazardous (classified) location in accordance with 250.100.

(B) Unclassified. In unclassified locations, where metal raceways are used for intirnsically safe system wiring in hazardous (classified) locations, associated apparatus shall be bonded in accordance with 501.30(A), 502.30(A), 503.30(A), 505.25 or 506.25 as applicable.


504.50 GROUNDING

(A) Intrinsically Safe Appartus, Enclosures, and Raceways. Intrinsically safe apparatus, enclosures and raceways, if of metal, shall be connected to the equipment grounding conductor......"



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Two questions:

1. 504.60(A) says to use 250.100 while 504.60(B) is for unclassified location says to use 501.30 which is classified. Whats the difference between 504.60(A) and 504.60(B)?

2. Anyone know why 504.60(A) would say bond per 250.100 while 504.50 would say to use EGC? Whats difference between 504.60 and 504.50?

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hhsting said:
Two questions:

1. 504.60(A) says to use 250.100 while 504.60(B) is for unclassified location says to use 501.30 which is classified. Whats the difference between 504.60(A) and 504.60(B)?

2. Anyone know why 504.60(A) would say bond per 250.100 while 504.50 would say to use EGC? Whats difference between 504.60 and 504.50?

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My 2017 NEC section 504.60(A) does not mention 250.100 at all. There are highlighted sections which indicate a change was made this year.
 
oldsparky52 said:
My 2017 NEC section 504.60(A) does not mention 250.100 at all. There are highlighted sections which indicate a change was made this year.
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Ok seems like there is change to 504.60 in 2017.

So 504.50(A) says to use EGC and 504.60 says to use 501.30(A). What is the difference between 504.50 and 504.60?

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