- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
No...the standard welded wire mesh used to reinforce the concrete is acceptable.See list item 3 in post #10.
Equipotential Grid - Pool
- Thread starter W@ttson
- Start date
- Location
- Tennessee NEC:2017
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrician
I didn't catch that one. I just grabbed #2 from the list.
Thats my understanding also it just removes an option that was added in 2008.
If they are not pouring a slab under the pavers I would propose a steel wire mesh like a used in a slab I think that meets the TIA.
You mean this product even if there is no concrete being poured?
Steel wire mesh
Seems naughty. I have a hard time seeing that as equal to bonding to rebar or a copper mesh grid.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Why not? There is no real current flow here. However one issue would be the corrosion of that product buried directly in the earth.
mtnelect
HVAC & Electrical Contractor
- Location
- Southern California
- Occupation
- Contractor, C10 & C20 - Semi Retired
This might help to explain.
Cool graphic
Mystic Pools
Senior Member
- Location
- Park Ridge, NJ
- Occupation
- Swimming Pool Contractor
When the EBG was first required, we had to lay down a copper grid 12x12. A 3' area was required and the first 12" of the concrete walls (with rebar) were factored into that 3' area. The rolls came in 100'. If I had a pool beyond 100', an additional roll was needed and the customer paid for that. $$$
I forget what year it went to a single, solid, bare #8. Currently it is still acceptable, but the grid may be making a comeback in NJ. Some states still require the grid.
I forget what year it went to a single, solid, bare #8. Currently it is still acceptable, but the grid may be making a comeback in NJ. Some states still require the grid.
I guess my issue with is that the NEC requires listed splices to interconnect the #8AWG wire or exothermic welding. The minimum copper conductor is #8AWG.
The NEC does not recognize the thin wire mess anywhere as part of a ground electrode system. The NEC recognizes rebar as part of a ground electrode system. For example, if your foundation was made of that wire mesh instead of rebar it would not count as a CEE.
If there are strict minimum size requirements for copper wire as well as strict/listing splicing requirements for copper, it just seems a bit inconsistent to allow the thin steel wire mesh.
Though I do think it will help reduce voltage gradients, I just would like to see a bit more consistency. Maybe let #10AWG wire to be used. Perhaps allow unlisted wire tyes instead of listed splices or exothermic welding as the only ways to connect the copper wire.
I assume it will be required when the 2023 is accepted into the state code. Likely in 5 or 6 years.
Yes, this is where I first found out about the TIA. He is actually in the committee.
Mystic Pools
Senior Member
- Location
- Park Ridge, NJ
- Occupation
- Swimming Pool Contractor
Probably
farmantenna
Senior Member
- Location
- mass
Massachusetts rejected the perimeter single wire and we must use the copper grid which is purchased Florida company
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
You would think they would have had to had some substantiation , i.e. testing, before they made it code. Now there are thousands of these pools out there that are a potential danger.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
You would think that. Another example of the group of bozos we have on these CMP's. Maybe if someone dies they can be sued out of existence.
And what's going to happen when you go to sell your house with the single #8 run around the pool? Since it now a known safety hazard are these paved surfaces around the pool going to need to be ripped out and redone?
Mystic Pools
Senior Member
- Location
- Park Ridge, NJ
- Occupation
- Swimming Pool Contractor
What about pools with no EBG?
There was a Mike Holt video about how he went to someone’s house in NYC that was getting shocked by the pool. It was one of his videos in NEV (neutral earth voltage). Com Edison basically said we aren’t going to change anything and to solve this you need to provide better equipotential bonding.
This is also parallel to the topic I posted a few months back about how islands now cannot have receptacles due to the study where kids have been getting hurt by pulling the cords. All houses built or remodeled from early 1990s until whenever you jurisdiction adopts the 2023 code will have this safety concern.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
This is not a part of any grounding electrode system and the pool equipotential bonding is prohibited from being used as a grounding electrode.
Reducing voltage gradients is the only purpose of the pool bonding. Actually the bonding eliminates the voltage gradient unless there is some high current fault that is flowing enough current through the bonding to result in a voltage drop across the bonding.
I would suggest the bonding of the steel in the wire mesh is equal to or better than a mechanical connection that is permitted for the copper connections as the wire mesh has welded connections. However you are correct that the wire mesh can be of a smaller gauge than the 8AWG required for copper. Rolled welded wire mesh is available in 10, 8 and 6 AWG
The owner of this site did some testing that showed that even with a resistance of 1k ohm the pool bond still does its job in eliminating the voltage gradient. The videos may still be posted on his main site.
I was not trying to say that the system needs to be part of the GES. I was just trying to show that the steel wire mesh is not located anywhere in the electrical code and just came out of left field. All other methods have some sort of place within the NEC in different places.