Equipotential grid

Status
Not open for further replies.
N

nickelec

Senior Member
Location
US
Im in the process of doing a pool for a friend it's in ground with a plastic shell but the top has metal caps for pavers to sit on, when doing the perimeter bond do these caps need to be bonded as well , there are probably about 10-12 peices going around the whole pool there not continous, the caps are pretty much in the dirt , I'm thinking the perimeter grid probably takes care of this but not sure

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
I agree.. A pita job but it needs to be done. I have to do gutters and metal handrails for a sunken in the deck hot tub. Sucks. Why would I want to take stray voltage from the ground and put it on the gutters?
 
So the metal caps are not exposed or able to be contacted by a person and are separated by a permanent barrier the paving stones? Wouldn't 680.26(B)(7)Ex#1 cover this?
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I agree.. A pita job but it needs to be done. I have to do gutters and metal handrails for a sunken in the deck hot tub. Sucks. Why would I want to take stray voltage from the ground and put it on the gutters?
Click to expand...
A little confused at what you are getting at with this, might just be choice of wording though.

Intent of equipotential bonding isn't to "ground" the objects in question - it is to bond all objects in the vicinity of the pool user so they are all at same potential - we sort of don't care what potential they are in relation to "ground". The entire pool could be sitting there at 100 volts above ground, but a well installed EPB system will leave the pool users with no clue they are "energized".

Now that much voltage still likely yields problems at the perimeter of the deck and near other bonded objects, but located away from the pool.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I've done several concrete pools. They have a metal track that mounts to the top for the liner to hang on. This track is very thin and will be covered with coping stones. The inspectors here make me bond this track. It's a pain because the track is not one continuous piece but several pieces placed end to end. They don't actually touch each other so they are not electrically continuous.

What I have to do is install a lay-in lug, rated for direct burial, on each section then run a #8 solid conductor around the top of the pool. Then I run a jumper down to the "Halo" #8 that encircles the pool. (equipotential bond wire)

I argued that the track will be covered with coping and can't be touched and the water is also bonded but made no head-way with the inspectors so I just do it on all pools of that type that I do.

So to answer the OP's question, yes you need to bond the metal caps.
 
Equipotential grid

f55d3abad428e134e0150bb829eb764a.jpg


You have to bond them unless they meet these exceptions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
infinity said:
So the metal caps are not exposed or able to be contacted by a person and are separated by a permanent barrier the paving stones? Wouldn't 680.26(B)(7)Ex#1 cover this?
Click to expand...
Yes there not exposed will be covered by pavers and mortar

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
Little Bill said:
I've done several concrete pools. They have a metal track that mounts to the top for the liner to hang on. This track is very thin and will be covered with coping stones. The inspectors here make me bond this track. It's a pain because the track is not one continuous piece but several pieces placed end to end. They don't actually touch each other so they are not electrically continuous.

What I have to do is install a lay-in lug, rated for direct burial, on each section then run a #8 solid conductor around the top of the pool. Then I run a jumper down to the "Halo" #8 that encircles the pool. (equipotential bond wire)

I argued that the track will be covered with coping and can't be touched and the water is also bonded but made no head-way with the inspectors so I just do it on all pools of that type that I do.

So to answer the OP's question, yes you need to bond the metal caps.
Click to expand...
I never done a pool, but even though they are not exposed, I would think it is still a good idea to bond them. Kind of no different then having isolated rebar in about same vicinity if it were concrete - seems to have a possibility of being able to introduce a voltage gradient if not bonded to other items and especially between two sections of it that are as you mentioned are all separate pieces.
 
blkmagik21 said:
Mortar is porous so therefore not a permanent barrier
Click to expand...

Where in the exception does it say that a permanent barrier cannot be porous? A masonry wall or a wood fence would qualify as a permanent barrier. Isn't the purpose of the barrier to keep someone from contacting the metal?
 
kwired said:
A little confused at what you are getting at with this, might just be choice of wording though.

Intent of equipotential bonding isn't to "ground" the objects in question - it is to bond all objects in the vicinity of the pool user so they are all at same potential - we sort of don't care what potential they are in relation to "ground". The entire pool could be sitting there at 100 volts above ground, but a well installed EPB system will leave the pool users with no clue they are "energized".

Now that much voltage still likely yields problems at the perimeter of the deck and near other bonded objects, but located away from the pool.
Click to expand...

After all the posts I have made on equipotential bonding why do you think I don't know it's purpose. If I bond a gutter aren't I putting the stray voltage on a gutter that more than likely has no voltage on it. I am thinking of painters and roofers with aluminum ladders.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
After all the posts I have made on equipotential bonding why do you think I don't know it's purpose. If I bond a gutter aren't I putting the stray voltage on a gutter that more than likely has no voltage on it. I am thinking of painters and roofers with aluminum ladders.
Click to expand...
Yes you are putting the stray voltage on it, as well as everything else that is bonded to your network which is what equipotential bonding it about.

If gutter in question is not within the zone required around a pool does your painters and roofers typically climb those aluminum ladders while barefoot, wearing swim suits, and possibly dripping wet after getting out of a pool? Said gutter isn't required to be bonded - but may inherently be bonded by something else leaving you with same issue.

You do put that same possible stray voltage on a properly installed satellite dish, a service mast, maybe a rooftop HVAC unit.
 
kwired said:
Yes you are putting the stray voltage on it, as well as everything else that is bonded to your network which is what equipotential bonding it about.

If gutter in question is not within the zone required around a pool does your painters and roofers typically climb those aluminum ladders while barefoot, wearing swim suits, and possibly dripping wet after getting out of a pool? Said gutter isn't required to be bonded - but may inherently be bonded by something else leaving you with same issue.

You do put that same possible stray voltage on a properly installed satellite dish, a service mast, maybe a rooftop HVAC unit.
Click to expand...


Yes, I know all the above. A painter with an aluminum ladder set on the earth does not need to be barefoot to get shocked. I got nailed with the old wood ladder while it was raining and the ladder was damp.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Yes, I know all the above. A painter with an aluminum ladder set on the earth does not need to be barefoot to get shocked. I got nailed with the old wood ladder while it was raining and the ladder was damp.
Click to expand...
Guess we need to drive ground rods at the base of conductive ladders from now on:D
 
kwired said:
Guess we need to drive ground rods at the base of conductive ladders from now on:D
Click to expand...

they make them like that now, not with a 10ft rod, just some 12" spikes for soft dirt applications. serves to help keep feet firmly in place, as well as makes electrical contact with earth.

drive in a couple of gnd rods, bond it all, tie the bond to egc in multiple locations if possible. you then get no'y shock'y
 
FionaZuppa said:
...drive in a couple of gnd rods, bond it all, tie the bond to egc in multiple locations if possible. you then get no'y shock'y
Click to expand...
As well as being a complete waste of time and resources that advice is completely wrong. Ground rods play no role in electrical safety and if you wanted to avoid a shock you would isolate you and your equipment from the ground.
 
ActionDave said:
As well as being a complete waste of time and resources that advice is completely wrong. Ground rods play no role in electrical safety and if you wanted to avoid a shock you would isolate you and your equipment from the ground.
Click to expand...
party pooper:)
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I agree.. A pita job but it needs to be done. I have to do gutters and metal handrails for a sunken in the deck hot tub. Sucks. Why would I want to take stray voltage from the ground and put it on the gutters?
Click to expand...
Dennis, I replied to this initially because I wasn't sure if you actually worded it as you meant to say things. That or maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to say. I though you were talking about a gutter and a metal hand rail withing vicinity of a hot tub, then you later bring up aluminum ladders and an energized gutter:huh:

If it is within the required distance from the tub I was pretty sure you knew the rules and why they exist. But "Why would I want to take stray voltage from the ground and put it on the gutters?" had me questioning things.
 
kwired said:
I though you were talking about a gutter and a metal hand rail withing vicinity of a hot tub, then you later bring up aluminum ladders and an energized gutter:huh:
Click to expand...

Not sure why that is hard to understand. If you connect the equipotential bonding to the gutters then you are putting the stray voltage up at the roof and on the gutters. A person working on a conductive ladder leaning against the structure can be 20' or more away from the pool but the gutter may still be energized. Hence, the ladder is grounded to the earth and the gutter has voltage on it. What happens when you touch the gutter? That is my point
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top